by MAC-3
Subject: Uh-huh.
Me: Okay, if that’s a fair estimate, fine. Let’s establish that, okay?
Subject: All right.
Me: Now, I mean, you know, I want you to know that’s where I’m coming from. I’m saying this, I’m just picking that out because it’s current, you know, you can remember. Ah, either you used the tampons or you didn’t! I mean that’s up-to-date!
Subject: Uh-huh.
218
The Art of Investigative Interviewing
Me: Okay, so what I’m saying is that’s a figure that it looks like we can work with that. All I’m doing is multiplying a year or fifty-two weeks and saying, does that sound fair? Does that sound right? Is that appropriate? I’m asking you that. You tell me! I don’t want anybody else to guess! I want you to tell me if it’s as accurate, as correct as we can make it.
Subject: Well, I’d have to say no, it’s not anywhere near that.
Me: Okay, fine. Let’s back off that. What is as accurate, as close to the truth as we can come, then? I mean, maybe it would be, you know, once every two weeks. I don’t know this.
Subject: Yeah.
Me: I’m suggesting that we look at the total picture, nail it down, and say, all right. This is as carefully prepared as we can make it.
And let’s get it straight, okay? All right?
Subject: Yeah.
Me: All right, you say four hundred dollars is too high.
Subject: Oh, yeah, obviously!
Me: All right, what do you think would be as close to the truth as we can make it? Would it be as high as three hundred dollars?
Subject: No.
Me: Okay, all right. What I’m saying now is merchandise that you walked off with, didn’t pay for. And that’s what we’re talking about, all right?
Subject: Uh-huh.
Me: All right, it’s in a reasonable area we can talk about; it’s not world-shaking. It’s not inexpensive, certainly; but it’s within reason we can work out! Okay? Good! Okay? Could two hundred dollars cover it? Do you think that two hundred dollars would be as close as we could come to the truth? Maximum? No doubt about it? No more than two hundred dollars. About two hundred dollars, but not any more? Is that fair?
Subject: No, I guess that isn’t either!
Me: Okay. Well, tell me then. What would be as fair and accurate as we can make it? Under two hundred dollars? What is as fair as you can recall on that amount that you have not paid for and walked off with and so forth. What would that be?
Subject: I don’t know. Because I still say I paid for my stuff! I might not have paid when I actually took the bottle of pop or when I took the candy.
Me: I’m talking about walking out with it, okay? That means not paying for it at all, okay? That’s what I’m saying to you. Where the
Three Case Studies
219
company would not be getting any money for the product. But the product is gone because you took it, all right?
Subject: Okay.
Me: All right, okay.
Subject: But I still have to say in those instances, the ones when you came up with the potato chips stuff, I did pay for it! I did pay for it! I know I put the money in there. I took it out of money that I always have, money in my purse. My wallet got stolen from me so I started carrying money with me. But I do have checks to verify that . . .
Me: Okay, okay. What I’m looking at is what you’re willing to straighten out and verify, okay?
Subject: Uh-huh.
Me: Okay, the pure simple truth of the matter is that I don’t really need to be here!
Subject: Uh-huh, but I also have to defend myself.
Me: I know that! Oh, my dear, I know that. I know that! That’s no problem. You may defend yourself. I’d rather you do it here than in court, all right?
Subject: I guess the thing is that I don’t believe he’s doing it. I’ve made bank deposits for him over the year.
Me: I know.
Subject: If I was going to take something . . .
Me: I know.
Subject (beginning to cry): I would have taken it there.
Me: Okay, I realize that. What I’m trying to say to you is, let us clarify what the truth . . .
Subject (crying but not defeated): Let him keep my check. He owes me for a week; let him keep it. That should take care of anything I owe him.
Me: What I’m concerned about is this. I’m not here to make you upset, please.
Subject: I have been since he told me this.
Me (consolingly): I know, okay. The thing I’m concerned about is trying to work it out. To work it out as comfortably as you can, but I know it’s not comfortable. I know that!
Subject: But if that’s going to make him feel like I have sufficiently paid for it, let him keep the check. Because that’s all I can do. I can’t pay for something I know I paid for.
Me: Uh-huh. Have you talked to your husband yet? [Diversion question.]
220
The Art of Investigative Interviewing
Subject: I mean to. I told him I quit, but I haven’t told him about this.
Me: Okay. Okay, well, all I can do is ask if you would clarify what you know you have not paid for, what you have taken and so forth, to the best of your knowledge. And you say it is under two hundred dollars. Do you think two hundred dollars would cover it or one hundred dollars, or what would be the maximum total of any that you know that you still owe for what you’ve taken?
Subject: Okay, what I still owe for is in my charge at work, which is maybe fifteen dollars. Because that’s the only thing I’ve ever walked out that door with . . . I didn’t hide them from him or anything.
Me: I understand that, I understand that, but a . . .
Subject: And I did pay for it!
Me: Yeah, uh-huh. Well, after a full search, that’s not the case!
Okay, what I hear you say then is . . . I don’t even know how much that check is worth that you have there. What is that worth?
Subject: I don’t know. I get four dollars per hour. A hundred and fifty dollars.
Me: Okay.
Subject: So, if he wants to just keep it, he can!
Me: That would even things out, do you think?
Subject: Yeah, I don’t know. I mean, it will probably make things fine with him. I don’t know, but it’s not going to make things right with me.
Me: I understand. As far as you’re concerned, okay, we’re not dealing with thousands of dollars. We’re dealing with about that much, and you think that would cover it, and then it would be an even type thing. That’s what I hear you say!
Subject: Well, yeah, as far as he’s concerned, I know what I’ve done. I haven’t! I mean. He told me this wasn’t going to be humiliating. Of course it is!
Me: The whole thing is uncomfortable, no doubt. It’s uncomfortable. No doubt about it. It’s an obviously uncomfortable situation for anybody to be in. And I’m trying to say, hey, let’s make it as comfortable as we can. And that’s why I’m suggesting to him and you ways to work it out.
Subject: Yeah.
Me: Okay, that’s what I’m saying to you.
Subject: [Not audible] let him keep the check [not audible].
Three Case Studies
221
Me: I’m making a note out to him so that he knows what you and I talked about, okay? And you read it over in just a minute so that it’s clear to you too.
Let me read this to you here. I’m addressing it to him. ”Dear Mr._______. I have quit ________ grocery today. I have given up my keys. I want ______ to keep my paycheck if he thinks it will cover the merchandise I have taken from the store without paying for it. I believe that the check in holding is about $150. I believe we are even then. I will make no claim for that last paycheck. I won’t bother with it. Mr. Yeschke has treated me fairly today. No one has promised me anything or threatened me in any way to make this statement.”
Okay, so is that straightforward?
Subject: Yeah, bu
t it’s still implying that I’m saying that I did it.
And I’m saying that I didn’t do it. So, all I’m saying is, if that’s what is going to make him happy, keeping it, then fine.
Me: I understand.
Subject: But I’m not going to admit that I did something!
Me: I understand.
Subject: I still say I didn’t.
Me: Okay. I’ll put that in there, okay? “I refuse to admit that I stole from ________ grocery; but I am willing to allow _____ grocery to keep my last paycheck.”
I really haven’t talked with him too much, but he did show concern when I did speak with him. Okay, let’s see (reading over statement to self). Okay, let me read this: “I refuse to admit that I stole from _____ grocery, but I’m willing to allow Mr. _______ of ______
grocery to keep my last paycheck. I believe this is the only fair thing to do. I have clear thoughts regarding this matter.” In other words, you’re thinking on it and you’re as clear as you can be on this, okay? Why don’t you read this over if you will? (Statement and pen given to subject.) I scratched one word down there at the very end if you would put your initials by that, at least. I’ll tell you what. Would you write, “The above is the truth,” just underneath there, and put your name underneath that? Indicating that you’ve read it.
Thank you! (She returned signed statement.) The main thing is that you know you’re indicating your willingness to get it straightened out, and I would think that it would be enough!
Okay.
Subject: I don’t think it will be!
Me: You don’t think so? You think he’s the kind of guy that’s going to be pushy or something? Well, let’s hope this will work out as
222
The Art of Investigative Interviewing
smoothly as possible. That’s my recommendation, anyway. This is hopefully running its course as it is here.
Subject: What’s going to happen next?
Me: Well, I can’t say that because I don’t know. It’s not up to me.
I have no control over that. It’s not up to me. I wish I could give you some easy answer, but I don’t have any easy answers.
Do you have a child? [Diversion question.]
Subject (crying): I have two.
Me: Two children. Not very good times for this problem for you!
Subject (crying): I don’t believe he did this. I don’t believe it. I do not believe it. I think what bothers me the most is that I worked with him, I’ve worked with his wife; I trained in his wife. Me and his wife became friends, and for him to do this—I don’t believe it.
Me: Yeah.
Subject (crying): I know he isn’t going to be satisfied with this.
I know that every time I go for a job, he’s going to hurt me. I know it. I’ve taken care of other people’s kids; I’ve been a Sunday school teacher; I’ve been a Bible school teacher; I’m a Brownie leader now for twelve girls. And then for him to come along and do this to me.
Me: I know it’s not easy, not easy. Well, to verify just the fact that it would be some minor amounts as you’ve indicated here . . .
Subject: [Not audible]
Me: Okay, as far as I’m concerned, you know, all I can do is what we’ve done now, and leave it go at that. It would be up to Mr.
______ to talk with you or you to him or whatever. It’s important, I think, for you to talk to your husband and get things worked out.
Anyway, that’s a possibility for some time in the future. If you have any questions, please give me a call. And as I say, I’m kind of in the middle and trying to work things as smoothly as possible so that . . .
Subject: I didn’t mean to cry. It’s just that there’s a lot of tension on me.
Me: I know there’s a lot of tension on you. That’s okay. It’s a normal thing for you to cry; you must feel pretty much alone . . .
Subject (crying): [Not audible]
Me: You probably feel disappointed too?
Subject: That’s the biggest thing. I never called in sick or took time off because I knew he was stuck. I worked when they were on vacation. [Some comments not audible]
Me: Yeah. That’s the real painful part of it is when you give up part of yourself and something like this occurs.
Subject: He gave me lousy jobs, and I did them . . . [Not audible]
Three Case Studies
223
Me: Well, I appreciate your time, and I’m sorry we have you feeling upset; but as I say, I’m trying to be somewhat in the middle and try to work it out the best way we can. I know it’s not easy for you, I realize that. But if there’s any questions you have or if there’s . . .
Subject: I have a bank key.
Me: Bank key? Do you have it now? I can carry it to him.
Subject: [Not audible, no denial]
Me: Well, if you prefer, if you want to drop if off there.
Subject: I’ll just give it to you!
Me: It is a bank key, is it?
Subject: [Not audible]
Me: Okay, I’ll talk with him and explain, you are trying to be cooperative, and there’s a certain hesitance, a feeling of needing to be protective and so forth, and that’s understood. That’s understood.
Anyway, if there’s anything that I can comment on, feel free to give me a call.
Subject: Are you going to call and let me know [not audible]
Me: Let me talk with him and see what the circumstances are, and my recommendation to him will be that it stops here, okay? Even though you were reluctant to admit stealing, I can see where you’re coming from, and that’s understood. But you have in so many words told me that you have, and you know, that’s neither here nor there. I mean, you don’t have to really say it specifically.
I’m convinced that you have and that you have already explained, and $150 covers it, and so forth, and, you know, that’s what I hear you saying. Okay?
Subject: [Not audible]
Me: I know, I know that you didn’t specifically say that, I know that. But what I’m looking to do is to explain to him that you’re clearing this up reasonably, and I’m getting the clear impression that you’re sorry for, you know, walking off with product, and you’re disappointed that it had to come to this stage. And that’s about all. Okay?
Subject: [Not audible]
Me: I’ll talk to him, then, and try to get things worked out the best way possible. Anything else you want to ask me before I leave?
Subject: No.
Me: I haven’t abused you in any way, I hope, okay?
Subject: No.
Me: Okay, I just want to be sure I treated you fairly in discussing it and trying to straighten things out. Is that what I hear you say?
Subject: Yeah.
224
The Art of Investigative Interviewing
Me: Okay, because I don’t want to upset you any more than you already are. Take care now!
Subject: Okay.
Me: Bye-bye.
Subject: Bye. Thank you!
Me: Uh-huh.
REVIEW QUESTIONS
1. How did the investigator establish rapport in this inquiry?
2. Did the subject of the interrogation ever specifically deny stealing from the store? If not, why not?
3. Did the investigator lie to the subject? If so, when and how?
4. What did it mean when the subject began to cry?
5. Was the subject’s statement voluntary?
6. How did the subject try to save face, and when?
7. Why did the investigator indicate that he was convinced she had stolen from her employer?
8. How were the hidden persuaders applied in this inquiry?
Give specific examples.
Conclusion
There is, it seems, much confusion over the law regarding the dif ferences between private and public interviewing. It is my hope that this book may, in some small way, help progressive policy-makers see more clearly what investigative interviewing consists of and how it affects both pr
ivate and public investigations so that they can advance acceptable guidelines for all investigators.
Clearly defined standards for interviewing and interrogating will strengthen the role of both private and public investigators. We have waited far too long for such guidelines.
It is my hope and prayer that this book will make it obvious and indisputable that the way you treat people influences their responses. Finally, I suggest that you learn how to whistle for the truth while using finesse.
Soli Deo Gloria.
225
Bibliography
Abrams, Stanley. 1977. A Polygraph Handbook for Attorneys. Lexington, Mass.: Lexington Books.
Adorno, T. W., Else Frenkel-Brunswik, Daniel F. Levinson, and R. Nevitt.
1950. The Authoritarian Personality. New York: Sanford, Harper and Brothers.
American Polygraph Association. 1990. Code of Ethics and Standards and Principles of Practice.
American Psychiatric Association. 1980. Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders. 3d ed. Washington, D.C.: APA.
Aubry, Arthur S., Jr., and Rudolph R. Caputo. 1980. Criminal Interrogation. Springfield, Ill.: Charles C Thomas.
Banaka, William H. 1971. Training in Depth Interviewing. New York: Harper and Row.
Beckwith v. United States, 425 U.S. 341, 96 S. Ct. 1612 (1976).
Benjamin, Alfred. 1974. The Helping Interview. Boston: Houghton-Mifflin.
227
228
The Art of Investigative Interviewing
Bennis, W. G., D. E. Berlew, E. H. Schein, and F. I. Steel, eds. 1973.
Interpersonal Dynamics: Essays and Readings on Human Interaction. 3d ed. Homewood, Ill.: Dorsey Press.
Berg, Irwin A., and Bernard M. Bass, eds. 1961. Conformity and Deviation.
New York: Harper and Brothers.
Berne, Eric. 1974. Games People Play. New York: Grove.
Berne, Eric. 1977. Intuition and Ego States. San Francisco, TA Press.
Binder, D. A., and S. C. Price. 1977. Legal Interviewing and Counseling. St.
