3 Sāriputta and Koṭṭhita (1)
On one occasion the Venerable Sāriputta and the Venerable Mahākoṭṭhita were dwelling at Bārāṇası̄ in the Deer Park at Isipatana. Then, in the evening, the Venerable Mahākoṭṭhita emerged from seclusion and approached the Venerable Sāriputta. He exchanged greetings with the Venerable Sāriputta and, when they had concluded their greetings and cordial talk, he sat down to one side and said to him:
“How is it, friend Sāriputta, does the Tathāgata exist after death?”
“Friend, the Blessed One has not declared this: ‘The Tathāgata exists after death.’”
(As in the preceding sutta down to:) [385]
“Friend, the Blessed One has not declared this either: ‘The Tathāgata neither exists nor does not exist after death.’”
“How is this, friend? When asked, ‘How is it, friend, does the Tathāgata exist after death?’ … And when asked, ‘Then, friend, does the Tathāgata neither exist nor not exist after death?’—in each case you say: ‘Friend, the Blessed One has not declared this.’ What now, friend, is the cause and reason why this has not been declared by the Blessed One?”
“‘The Tathāgata exists after death’: this, friend, is an involvement with form.378 ‘The Tathāgata does not exist after death’: this is an involvement with form. ‘The Tathāgata both exists and does not exist after death’: this is an involvement with form. ‘The Tathāgata neither exists nor does not exist after death’: this is an involvement with form.
“‘The Tathāgata exists after death’: this, friend, is an involvement with feeling … an involvement with perception … an involvement with volitional formations [386] … an involvement with consciousness. ‘The Tathāgata does not exist after death’: this is an involvement with consciousness. ‘The Tathāgata both exists and does not exist after death’: this is an involvement with consciousness. ‘The Tathāgata neither exists nor does not exist after death’: this is an involvement with consciousness.
“This, friend, is the cause and reason why this has not been declared by the Blessed One.”
4 Sāriputta and Koṭṭhita (2)
(As above down to:)
“What now, friend, is the cause and reason why this has not been declared by the Blessed One?”
“Friend, it is one who does not know and see form as it really is, who does not know and see its origin, its cessation, and the way leading to its cessation, that thinks: ‘The Tathāgata exists after death,’ or ‘The Tathāgata does not exist after death,’ or ‘The Tathāgata both exists and does not exist after death,’ or ‘The Tathāgata neither exists nor does not exist after death.’ It is one who does not know and see feeling as it really is … who does not know and see perception as it really is … who does not know and see volitional formations as they really are ... who does not know and see consciousness as it really is, who does not know and see its origin, its cessation, and the way leading to its cessation, that thinks: ‘The Tathāgata exists after death’ … [387] … or ‘The Tathāgata neither exists nor does not exist after death.’
“But, friend, one who knows and sees form ... feeling ... perception … volitional formations … consciousness as it really is, who knows and sees its origin, its cessation, and the way leading to its cessation, does not think: ‘The Tathāgata exists after death’ … or ‘The Tathāgata neither exists nor does not exist after death.’
“This, friend, is the cause and reason why this has not been declared by the Blessed One.”
5 Sāriputta and Koṭṭhita (3)
(As above down to:)
“What now, friend, is the cause and reason why this has not been declared by the Blessed One?”
“Friend, it is one who is not devoid of lust for form, who is not devoid of desire, affection, thirst, passion, and craving for form, that thinks: ‘The Tathāgata exists after death,’ or ‘The Tathāgata does not exist after death,’ or ‘The Tathāgata both exists and does not exist after death,’ or ‘The Tathāgata neither exists nor does not exist after death.’ It is one who is not devoid of lust for feeling … who is not devoid of lust for perception … who is not devoid of lust for volitional formations … who is not devoid of lust for consciousness, who is not devoid of desire, affection, thirst, passion, and craving for consciousness, that thinks: ‘The Tathāgata exists after death’ … [388] or ‘The Tathāgata neither exists nor does not exist after death.’
“But, friend, one who is devoid of lust for form ... who is devoid of lust for feeling ... who is devoid of lust for perception … who is devoid of lust for volitional formations … who is devoid of lust for consciousness, who is devoid of desire, affection, thirst, passion, and craving for consciousness, does not think: ‘The Tathāgata exists after death’ ... or ‘The Tathāgata neither exists nor does not exist after death.’
“This, friend, is the cause and reason why this has not been declared by the Blessed One.”
6 Sāriputta and Koṭṭhita (4)
On one occasion the Venerable Sāriputta and the Venerable Mahākoṭṭhita were dwelling at Bārāṇası̄ in the Deer Park at Isipatana. Then, in the evening, the Venerable Sāriputta emerged from seclusion and approached the Venerable Mahākoṭṭhita. He exchanged greetings with the Venerable Mahākoṭṭhita and, when they had concluded their greetings and cordial talk, he sat down to one side and said to him:
“How is it, friend Koṭṭhita, does the Tathāgata exist after death?”
(All as above down to:)
“What now, friend, is the cause and reason why this has not been declared by the Blessed One?”
(i. Delight in the aggregates)
“Friend, it is one who delights in form, who takes delight in form, who rejoices in form, and who does not know and see the cessation of form as it really is, that thinks: [389] ‘The Tathāgata exists after death’ ... or ‘The Tathāgata neither exists nor does not exist after death.’ It is one who delights in feeling ... who delights in perception … who delights in volitional formations … who delights in consciousness, who takes delight in consciousness, who rejoices in consciousness, and who does not know and see the cessation of consciousness as it really is, that thinks: ‘The Tathāgata exists after death’ … or ‘The Tathāgata neither exists nor does not exist after death.’
“But, friend, one who does not delight in form ... who does not delight in feeling ... who does not delight in perception … who does not delight in volitional formations … who does not delight in consciousness, who does not take delight in consciousness, who does not rejoice in consciousness, and who knows and sees the cessation of consciousness as it really is, does not think: ‘The Tathāgata exists after death’ … or ‘The Tathāgata neither exists nor does not exist after death.’
“This, friend, is the cause and reason why this has not been declared by the Blessed One.”
(ii. Delight in existence)
“But, friend, could there be another method of explaining why this has not been declared by the Blessed One?”
“There could be, friend. It is one who delights in existence, who takes delight in existence, who rejoices in existence, and who does not know and see the cessation of existence as it really is, that thinks: ‘The Tathāgata exists after death’ … or ‘The Tathāgata neither exists nor does not exist after death.’ [390]
“But, friend, one who does not delight in existence, who does not take delight in existence, who does not rejoice in existence, and who knows and sees the cessation of existence as it really is, does not think: ‘The Tathāgata exists after death’ … or ‘The Tathāgata neither exists nor does not exist after death.’
“This, friend, is the cause and reason why this has not been declared by the Blessed One.”
(iii. Delight in clinging)
“But, friend, could there be another method of explaining why this has not been declared by the Blessed One?”
“There could be, friend. It is one who
delights in clinging, who takes delight in clinging, who rejoices in clinging, and who does not know and see the cessation of clinging as it really is, that thinks: ‘The Tathāgata exists after death’ … or ‘The Tathāgata neither exists nor does not exist after death.’
“But, friend, one who does not delight in clinging, who does not take delight in clinging, who does not rejoice in clinging, and who knows and sees the cessation of clinging as it really is, does not think: ‘The Tathāgata exists after death’ … or ‘The Tathāgata neither exists nor does not exist after death.’
“This, friend, is the cause and reason why this has not been declared by the Blessed One.”
(iv. Delight in craving)
“But, friend, could there be another method of explaining why this has not been declared by the Blessed One?”
“There could be, friend. It is one who delights in craving, who takes delight in craving, who rejoices in craving, and who does not know and see the cessation of craving as it really is, that thinks: ‘The Tathāgata exists after death’ … [391] or ‘The Tathāgata neither exists nor does not exist after death.’
“But, friend, one who does not delight in craving, who does not take delight in craving, who does not rejoice in craving, and who knows and sees the cessation of craving as it really is, does not think: ‘The Tathāgata exists after death’ ... or ‘The Tathāgata neither exists nor does not exist after death.’
“This, friend, is the cause and reason why this has not been declared by the Blessed One.”
(v. Another method?)
“But, friend, could there be another method of explaining why this has not been declared by the Blessed One?”
“Here now, friend Sāriputta, why should you want anything additional to this? Friend Sāriputta, when a bhikkhu is liberated by the destruction of craving, there is no round for describing him.”379
7 Moggallāna
Then the wanderer Vacchagotta approached the Venerable Mahāmoggallāna and exchanged greetings with him. When they had concluded their greetings and cordial talk, he sat down to one side and said to the Venerable Mahāmoggallāna:
“How is it, Master Moggallāna, is the world eternal?”
“Vaccha, the Blessed One has not declared this: ‘The world is eternal.’”
“Then, Master Moggallāna, is the world not eternal?”
“Vaccha, the Blessed One has not declared this either: ‘The world is not eternal.’”
“How is it then, Master Moggallāna, is the world finite?”
“Vaccha, the Blessed One has not declared this: ‘The world is finite.’”
“Then, Master Moggallāna, is the world infinite?”
“Vaccha, the Blessed One has not declared this either: ‘The world is infinite.’” [392]
“How is it then, Master Moggallāna, are the soul and the body the same?”
“Vaccha, the Blessed One has not declared this: ‘The soul and the body are the same.’”
“Then, Master Moggallāna, is the soul one thing, the body another?”
“Vaccha, the Blessed One has not declared this either: ‘The soul is one thing, the body is another.’”
“How is it, Master Moggallāna, does the Tathāgata exist after death?”
“Vaccha, the Blessed One has not declared this: ‘The Tathāgata exists after death.’”
“Then, Master Moggallāna, does the Tathāgata not exist after death?”
“Vaccha, the Blessed One has not declared this either: ‘The Tathāgata does not exist after death.’”
“How is it, then, Master Moggallāna, does the Tathāgata both exist and not exist after death?”
“Vaccha, the Blessed One has not declared this either: ‘The Tathāgata both exists and does not exist after death.’”
“Then, Master Moggallāna, does the Tathāgata neither exist nor not exist after death?”
“Vaccha, the Blessed One has not declared this either: ‘The Tathāgata neither exists nor does not exist after death.’”
“What, Master Moggallāna, is the cause and reason why, when wanderers of other sects are asked such questions, they give such answers as: ‘The world is eternal’ or ‘The world is not eternal’; or ‘The world is finite’ or ‘The world is infinite’; or ‘The soul and the body are the same’ or ‘The soul is one thing, the body is another’; or ‘The Tathāgata exists after death,’ or ‘The Tathāgata does not exist after death,’ or ‘The Tathāgata both exists and does not exist after death,’ or ‘The Tathāgata neither exists nor does not exist after death’? [393] And what is the cause and reason why, when the ascetic Gotama is asked such questions, he does not give such answers?”
“Vaccha, wanderers of other sects regard the eye thus: ‘This is mine, this I am, this is my self.’ They regard the ear ... the nose ... the tongue ... the body ... the mind thus: ‘This is mine, this I am, this is my self.’ Therefore, when the wanderers of other sects are asked such questions, they give such answers as: ‘The world is eternal’ … or ‘The Tathāgata neither exists nor does not exist after death.’ But, Vaccha, the Tathāgata, the Arahant, the Perfectly Enlightened One, regards the eye thus: ‘This is not mine, this I am not, this is not my self.’ He regards the ear ... the mind thus: ‘This is not mine, this I am not, this is not my self.’ Therefore, when the Tathāgata is asked such questions, he does not give such answers.”
Then the wanderer Vacchagotta rose from his seat and approached the Blessed One. He exchanged greetings with the Blessed One ...and said to him:
“How is it, good Gotama, is the world eternal?”
(All as above down to:)
“Vaccha, I have not declared this either: ‘The Tathāgata neither exists nor does not exist after death.’” [394]
“What, Master Gotama, is the cause and reason why, when wanderers of other sects are asked such questions, they give such answers as: ‘The world is eternal’ … or ‘The Tathāgata neither exists nor does not exist after death’? And what is the cause and reason why, when the ascetic Gotama is asked such questions, he does not give such answers?”
“Vaccha, wanderers of other sects regard the eye ... the mind thus: ‘This is mine, this I am, this is my self.’ Therefore, when the wanderers of other sects are asked such questions, they give such answers as: ‘The world is eternal’ … or ‘The Tathāgata neither exists nor does not exist after death.’ But, Vaccha, the Tathāgata, the Arahant, the Perfectly Enlightened One, regards the eye ... the mind thus: ‘This is not mine, this I am not, this is not my self.’ Therefore, when the Tathāgata is asked such questions, he does not give such answers.”
“It is wonderful, Master Gotama! It is amazing, Master Gotama! How the meaning and the phrasing of both teacher and disciple coincide and agree with each other and do not diverge, that is, in regard to the chief matter. Just now, Master Gotama, I approached the ascetic Moggallāna [395] and asked him about this matter. The ascetic Moggallāna explained this matter to me in exactly the same terms and phrases that Master Gotama used. It is wonderful, Master Gotama! It is amazing, Master Gotama! How the meaning and the phrasing of both teacher and disciple coincide and agree with each other and do not diverge, that is, in regard to the chief matter.”
8 Vacchagotta
Then the wanderer Vacchagotta approached the Blessed One and exchanged greetings with him. When they had concluded their greetings and cordial talk, he sat down to one side and said to him:
“How is it, Master Gotama, is the world eternal?”… (as above) ...
“What, Master Gotama, is the cause and reason why, when wanderers of other sects are asked such questions, they give such answers as: ‘The world is eternal’ … or ‘The Tathāgata neither exists nor does not exist after death.’ And what is the cause and reason why, when Master Gotama is asked such questions, he does not give such answers?”
“Vaccha, wanderers of other sects regard form as self, or self as possessing form, or form as in self, or se
lf as in form. They regard feeling as self ... perception as self ... volitional formations as self … consciousness as self, or self as possessing consciousness, or consciousness as in self, or self as in consciousness. Therefore, [396] when the wanderers of other sects are asked such questions, they give such answers as: ‘The world is eternal’ ... or ‘The Tathāgata neither exists nor does not exist after death.’ But, Vaccha, the Tathāgata, the Arahant, the Perfectly Enlightened One, does not regard form as self ... or self as in consciousness. Therefore, when the Tathāgata is asked such questions, he does not give such answers.”
The Connected Discourses of the Buddha Page 152
