Early the next morning, Saturday, August 17, Bill Stuckey finally made use of the address he had gotten from Bringuier. He went to Magazine Street at eight o’clock to catch Oswald before he left for the day. Oswald appeared on his front porch wearing nothing but a pair of U.S. Marine fatigue pants but looking trim and very “neat and clean.”* Stuckey had expected something more bohemian, a beard and sandals perhaps, more like a folk singer. Stuckey invited Oswald to appear on his radio program, Latin Listening Post, that night. If Oswald would come down to the WDSU studios at five, they could record an interview out of which four and a half minutes would be edited for broadcast the same evening at 7:30.
Oswald was more than ready to oblige. The two men talked long enough on the screen porch for Stuckey to form the opinion that Oswald was intelligent, articulate, and serious-minded, the type who could attract some followers to his ideas. Oswald could not invite Stuckey in for a cup of coffee, because, he said, his wife and child were still asleep. Lee probably wanted to avoid the debacle of the evening before when Quiroga heard him speak Russian to his child. He showed Stuckey his membership cards in the FPCC, including the one that designated him secretary of the local chapter. He pointed out that he was only the secretary; A. Hidell was the president of the chapter—a chapter, we know, that was entirely fictitious, not being authorized by the national office of the FPCC. Lee also gave Stuckey some of the literature he had collected, including two speeches by Castro, “The Revolution Must be a School of Unfettered Thought” and “Bureaucracy and Sectarianism.” There was a pamphlet by the French existentialist Jean-Paul Sartre, Ideology and Revolution, and Corliss Lamont’s Crime against Cuba.
Oswald agreed to meet Stuckey at WDSU at five.1326
Stuckey was intrigued enough by Oswald to want to record an interview much longer than the four and a half minutes he could cram into his program. If it went well—from his estimation of Oswald, he thought it would—he would approach station management about running it complete, a half hour or so. He drew up a long list of questions.
Oswald came in about five, dressed as he had dressed for his two street demonstrations—neatly, in a short-sleeved white dress shirt, tie, and slacks. Under his arm he carried a blank looseleaf notebook. He handed Stuckey a reprint of an article about the treatment of the Cuban Revolution in the American press from the 1961 summer edition of Liberation magazine.1327 Stuckey and Oswald sat down before microphones in a studio and began the taped (not live) interview, while the recording engineer, Al Campin, listened to every word. Campin was as intrigued as Stuckey had been. He hadn’t encountered anyone with Oswald’s views, and he too was curious as to how Oswald thought and why. Oswald obviously already had fully prepared “answers” to Stuckey’s questions, which made Stuckey’s questions almost irrelevant. Stuckey realized “how adept [Oswald] was at taking a question, any question, and distorting it for his own purposes, saying what he wanted to say while making you think that he was answering your question. He was an expert in dialectics.” Stuckey let the conversation run to thirty-seven minutes.1328 Of course, he had never heard most of Oswald’s take on things before, which lent them a freshness they didn’t have; Oswald’s views had not developed much from the time he had been interviewed in Moscow by Priscilla Johnson and Aline Mosby.
Lee told one of his characteristically pathetic little lies when asked about his background—he claimed that he had worked his way up through the ranks of the Marine Corps to the grade of “buck sergeant.” Notably absent from his account of himself were his recent stay in Dallas, and, naturally, his pilgrimage to the Soviet Union. He didn’t even refer to the latter when asked if he knew of any black market in Soviet Russia.1329
Most of the rest of the interview was unremarkable, true as far as it went, though lacking any sort of insight into or special knowledge of conditions in Cuba, where Oswald had never been, or the nature of the severely strained Cuban-American relations. On a few occasions Oswald stumbled but displayed some agility in recovering.
He suggested that the suspensions of civil liberties in Cuba were similar to those imposed in the United States in 1950 with the outbreak of the Korean police action: “We adopted an emergency law which restricted newspapers, broadcasters, radio and TV from giving any opinions, any comments which [were] not already checked out by certain administrative bureaus of the United States Government.” Such restrictions and administrative bureaus were, of course, figments of Oswald’s imagination, and Stuckey, who had earlier been a columnist for the New Orleans States-Item, called him on it: “Mr. Oswald, this is very interesting to me to find out about the restrictions of newspapers in 1950 because I was in the newspaper business at that time and I do not recall seeing any such government bureau established…to tell us what to print. Exactly what do you have reference to?”
Oswald backpedaled—lamely: “Well, I have reference to the obvious fact that during wartime, haphazard guesses and information are not given by anyone. In regards to military strategical comments, such as comments or leaks about new fronts or movements and so forth, news was controlled at that time to that extent, as it is always controlled during a war or national emergency, always.”1330
He then claimed that the Fair Play for Cuba Committee had “often approached” the local Times-Picayune and States-Item newspaper syndicate with information or comments that the paper had “consistently refused” to print because of its anti-Castro position. Stuckey recognized this as claptrap and asked Oswald for the names of people at the paper he might have approached—people Stuckey knew well.
“I do not know the name of the reporter,” Oswald explained. “I did speak to the City Editor, I spoke to him one week ago and I spoke to him yesterday, Friday, which was immediately after our demonstration.”1331
Oswald’s resort to Far Left cant about the nature of the exodus from Cuba following the revolution also went astray. “Needless to say, there are classes of criminals; there are classes of people who are wanted in Cuba for crimes against humanity [a reference to members of Batista’s regime] and most of those people are the same people who are in New Orleans and have set themselves up in stores with blood money and who engage in day to day trade with New Orleanians.” To these he added, “Peasants who do not like the collectivization of Cuban agriculture [and] others who have one reason or the other…for fleeing Cuba. Most of these people flee by legal means. They are allowed to leave after requesting the Cuban government for exit visas. Some of these people for some reason or another do not like to apply for these visas.”
Stuckey countered that what Oswald said was “very interesting” because he had been covering the refugees for three years and the last Batista supporter he knew of had left the island at least two and a half years before, “and the rest of them I’ve talked to have been taxicab drivers, laborers, cane cutters, and that sort of thing,” the very people “the revolution was supposed to benefit.”
Oswald now admitted that the “Batista criminals” were in the minority and that the majority in the last year were undoubtedly “rather peasant class,” but went on to say that revolutions demand certain sacrifices and adaptations that not all are willing to make.1332
Oswald slipped again while advocating friendlier relations between Cuba and the “government of the United States and its government agencies, particularly certain covert, undercover agencies like the now defunct CIA.”
Stuckey was all but speechless. “Now defunct?” he asked.
“Well, its leadership is now defunct. Allen Dulles is now defunct.”1333
Allen Dulles, who survived to become a member of the Warren Commission, might well have been surprised to hear this description of his current mortal condition, but it was never broadcast. It fell by the wayside when Stuckey, immediately after the recording session, cut the tape down to the four and a half minutes, which was broadcast that night. Stuckey chose what he thought were the best parts, in particular Oswald’s definition of democracy, which Stuckey found good. Oswald said that
the definition of democracy was now “controversial…You know, it used to be very clear, but now it’s not. You know, when our forefathers drew up the constitution, they considered that democracy was creating an atmosphere of freedom of discussion, of argument, of finding the truth. The rights, well, the classic right of having life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. In Latin America they have none of those rights, none of them at all. And that is my definition of democracy, the right to be in a minority and not to be suppressed. The right to see for yourself, without government restrictions, such countries as Cuba, and we are restricted from going to Cuba.”
Stuckey told Oswald about his plan to play the original, uncut tape for station management to see if they would be interested in broadcasting it later, and he asked Oswald to call him on Monday, by which time he would have management’s decision. It was obvious to Stuckey that Oswald was delighted with his performance and felt he had “scored quite a coup.”1334
Indeed, so confident was Oswald that he would do well that it appears that before he even went to the station that night for the interview, he tried once again to induce some response from Vincent Lee at the national FPCC office by referring to his interview as if it had already taken place:
Dear Mr. Lee,
Since I last wrote you…about my arrest and fine in New Orleans for [distributing] literature for F.P.C.C., things have been moving pretty fast. On August 16th I organized a F.P.C.C. demonstration of three people. This demonstration was given considerable coverage by WDSU-TV Channel 6, and also by our Channel 4 T.V. station. Due to that I was invited by Bill Stucke to appear on his T.V. show called “Latin American Focus” at 7:30 P.M. Saturday’s on WDSU-Channel 6.
After the 15 minute interview which was filed on magnetic tape at 4:00 P.M. for rebroadcast at 7:30 I was flooded with callers and invitations to debate’s ect, as well as people interested in joining the F.P.C.C. New Orleans branch. That than is what has happened up to this day and hour. You can I think be happy with the developing situation here in New Orleans. I would however, ask you to rush some more literature particularly the white sheet “Truth about Cuba” regarding government restrictions on Travel, as I am quickly runing out.
Yours truly
Lee H. Oswald
On the outside of the envelope Oswald wrote, “RUSH PLEASE.”1335*
On Monday, Oswald called Stuckey, who told him that the program director had not wanted to broadcast the whole interview but was interested in a debate between Oswald and some local anti-Communists. It would run—live—for twenty-five minutes in one of the station’s regular, daily time slots, Conversation Carte Blanche, on Wednesday at 6:05 in the evening. “How many of you am I going to have to fight?” Oswald asked. Stuckey told him he had already arranged for two other guests, one whom Oswald knew—Carlos Bringuier. The other was Edward S. Butler, executive director of the Information Council of the Americas (INCA), a rising young star in the anti-Communism field. Butler, along with Dr. Alton Oschner, the famous New Orleans surgeon, founded INCA. Butler’s council was a producer of anti-Communist literature and recordings, principally tape-recorded interviews with Cuban and East European refugees from satellite countries of the USSR denouncing the evils of Communism. One of his featured speakers was Fidel Castro’s fervently anti-Communist sister, Juanita. The tapes were distributed to over a hundred radio stations in Latin America.1336 Stuckey and one of the station’s radio announcers, Bill Slatter, would be the co-moderators. Oswald cheerfully accepted the challenge.
That same day, August 19, Stuckey called a contact at the local FBI office, who read salient points of Oswald’s FBI file to him—Oswald’s defection to the USSR, his marriage to a Russian woman, his eventual repatriation, all of which Oswald had not mentioned in the first interview. Stuckey found this new information “so interesting,” and offered to let the FBI make a copy of the tape of the full thirty-seven-minute interview he had recorded on Saturday, and the agency did.1337
Stuckey had no qualms about ambushing Oswald with Oswald’s defection to Russia. He thought that Oswald was so glib that his appearances on WDSU radio might well attract new followers, but in the strongly anti-Communist, anti-Soviet atmosphere of New Orleans, that would be much less likely if his audience knew that Oswald had defected to the USSR. Butler, who had separately gotten hold of newspaper clippings on Oswald’s defection to Russia from the files of the House Un-American Activities Committee in Washington, D.C., agreed that Stuckey would spring the trap on Oswald at the very outset when he introduced the participants in the debate.1338
Oswald appeared promptly at 5:30 p.m., neatly if incongruously dressed in his heavy, badly cut woolen suit from Minsk—which must have been a misery in the sweltering heat of mid-August in New Orleans—a blue shirt, and a dark tie. He looked hot and uncomfortable. He carried the same black looseleaf notebook.1339
Butler came in a little later, and then Bringuier. Both of them carried what looked to Stuckey like “pounds and pounds” of literature. They were well prepared. Oswald approached Bringuier to shake his hand, and Bringuier returned the friendly gesture by explaining to Oswald that he had nothing personal against him, just ideological objections. Bringuier believed that the best thing he could do would be to get a Communist like Oswald out of the party and put him to work against Communism, because a former member of the party would know what Communism truly meant. He told Oswald he found it painful to see any American espouse Communism, because Communism was trying to destroy the United States. He was sure that if Oswald considered it—perhaps when he was in bed and thinking things over—he would see that he could still do something good for his country, for his family, and for himself. If Oswald wanted to do that, he could come to Bringuier, who would receive him with open arms.
It seemed a touchy moment to Stuckey, but Oswald just smiled at Bringuier and observed that he, Oswald, was on the correct side and Bringuier on the wrong side, and they left it at that. Oswald saw that Carlos was carrying Oswald’s Marine Corps manual and said, “Well, listen, Carlos, don’t try to do an invasion with that Guidebook for Marines, because that’s an old one and it will be a failure.” Bringuier took it as a joke.1340
After they took their places in the studio, the red “On the Air” sign went on and Bill Slatter, the radio announcer, introduced the program and then passed it over to Stuckey. Stuckey immediately sprang the trap on Oswald. Speaking of last Saturday’s appearance by Oswald on Latin Listening Post, Stuckey said, “Mr. Oswald said…that he was a native of New Orleans…had entered the U.S. Marine Corps in 1956 and was honorably discharged in 1959. He said…that he had lived in Fort Worth, Texas, before coming here to establish a Fair Play for Cuba chapter several weeks ago. However, there are a few items apparently that I suspect that Mr. Oswald left out in his original interview, which was principally where he lived…between 1959 and 1962…Mr. Butler brought some newspaper clippings to my attention…Washington newspaper clippings to the effect that Mr. Oswald had attempted to renounce his American citizenship in 1959 and become a Soviet citizen. There was another clipping dated 1962 saying that Mr. Oswald had returned from the Soviet Union with his wife and child after having lived there three years. Mr. Oswald, are these correct?”
“That is correct,” Oswald said. “Correct, yeah.”
“You did live in Russia for three years?”
“That is correct, and I think that those, the fact that I did live for a time in the Soviet Union gives me excellent qualifications to repudiate charges that Cuba and the Fair Play for Cuba Committee is Communist-controlled.”
Lee kept his composure and tried to change the subject, but his attackers would not let him off the hook. Lee had prepared to put up a spirited defense of the Cuban Revolution but was now forced to defend himself. They bored in relentlessly: Lee was probably a Communist, and the Fair Play for Cuba Committee was thus a Communist front, its strings pulled from Moscow. The so-called revolution in Cuba was a mask for the Soviet colonization of the island, and so on.
Slatter passed the microphone to Bringuier, who wanted to know “exactly the name of the organization you represent here in the city, because I have some confusion. Is [it] Fair Play for Cuba Committee or Fair Play for Russia Committee?”
“Well, that is a very provocative request,” Oswald said, “and I don’t think [it] requires an answer.”
Bringuier dropped his question and launched into a diatribe loaded with statistics about the decline in living standards since the success of Castro’s revolution, but Oswald countered that he didn’t think that was “the subject to be discussed tonight. The Fair Play for Cuba Committee, and as the name implies, is concerned primarily with Cuban-American relations.”
“How many people,” Slatter asked bluntly, “do you have in your committee here in New Orleans?”
“I cannot reveal that as secretary of the Fair Play for Cuba Committee.”
Reclaiming History Page 135
