MAPPLETHORPE: I would think that was probably it, because Tom probably wants it all for himself.
BOCKRIS: Are these other people in the group interesting?
MAPPLETHORPE: Maybe the one on his left. The others are very nice but they’re completely … when the album cover was picked out it was the other boy who came up with him and chose.
BOCKRIS: (Looks around loft.) It’s a strange space. It seems so thin and long. How far does it go down? (We get up and walk to end of loft.)
MAPPLETHORPE: There’s a darkroom down here. (Opens door, we lean in.)
BOCKRIS: Oh it’s really nice. It’s so clean. (We walk into next room.) This is where you cut everything. Bathroom.
MAPPLETHORPE: And then the studio in the front where I do pictures, but I prefer not using the studio.
BOCKRIS: Oh you have the black wall up there in the studio? (We walk up full length of loft to studio. One black high heel slipper sits on a ladder next to a champagne glass.) Ha ha ha ha ha. It’s nice though. Why don’t you like using it?
MAPPLETHORPE: Because it’s too safe. It’s too easy to take pictures here. You get the same light every day.
BOCKRIS: You just know what’s going to happen basically.
MAPPLETHORPE: Yeah and you know the backgrounds. (We walk back to the lounge area.)
BOCKRIS: Do you travel constantly Robert? You always seem to be going somewhere whenever I meet you. Is that true or is it just coincidence?
MAPPLETHORPE: It’s been true for the last three years I guess. I prefer (kneels down, zips up suitcase) travelling to staying in one place.
BOCKRIS: So do I. I really do a lot. I even get excited when I go to Philadelphia for the weekend.
MAPPLETHORPE: You’re from England?
BOCKRIS: But I’ve been in the States for a long time.
MAPPLETHORPE: I think we should sort of go.
BOCKRIS: Okay. (Get up put on coats get bags etc.) This is a new idea I have. Every time somebody I know goes to the airport I go out in the cab with them and that becomes an interview. It’s …
MAPPLETHORPE: It’s a good idea.
BOCKRIS: It’s a good idea, isn’t it? This is the first one I’ve done.
MAPPLETHORPE: Good idea. I think what you should do is try to get people who have cars.
BOCKRIS: I wrote to the editor of Chic magazine and I said I am going to the airport with Robert Mapplethorpe in his limousine.
(Walking to the front door, standing by the elevator.)
ELEVATOR OPERATOR: Can you all get in? (Elevator is crammed with plywood etc. Elevator operator is fellow tenant, female.)
BOCKRIS: We’re all going down, yeah. (Sound of buzz, sound of falling lumber etc.) What’s that buzzing sound?
ELEVATOR OPERATOR: It’s a saw.
BOCKRIS: Oh.
ELEVATOR OPERATOR: My aim wasn’t too good.
BOCKRIS: No that’s … I’ll just hold on here for a second.
MAPPLETHORPE: When I come back I want your place to be finished.
ELEVATOR OPERATOR: Yes sir! Yes sir! Of course.
MAPPLETHORPE: It might be actually, yeah?
ELEVATOR OPERATOR: Yes. It’ll be done in two weeks. Normally I would have said a week but I learn.
(Elevator arrives, door opens, squeeze out carefully.)
BOCKRIS: Right. I’ve got the door. OH!
MAPPLETHORPE: Okay. Thanks a lot, see you.
ELEVATOR OPERATOR: Bye bye.
(Walking out into street, bright sunlight.)
BOCKRIS: This is a wonderful day to go flying on. I really envy you. Do you like flying?
MAPPLETHORPE: Uummmm, yes.
BOCKRIS: Why’d you hesitate?
MAPPLETHORPE: Well I like getting someplace too. But I don’t really get off on flying. I usually end up being critical of the people sitting around me.
BOCKRIS: I think I just like the idea I suppose. I love travelling on ships. People should travel on ships more often.
MAPPLETHORPE: I could guess that from your hat.
BOCKRIS: No. I got this at San Simeon. (I am wearing a white sailor hat with San Simeon in black letters on it purchased at William Randolph Hearst’s fabulous California coastal estate.)
SAM WAGSTAFF: What are these? (We approach a series of extremely ornate ashtrays on foot high stands, bright shiny colors of cut glass and bronze covered in transparent plastic wrapping.)
BOCKRIS: Wow, really crazy …
MAPPLETHORPE: Strange.
BOCKRIS: Do you have a camera with you? (Robert indicates the large metal case he is carrying.) Is that your camera? It really looks like a gun case.
MAPPLETHORPE: You have the pictures, right?
BOCKRIS: I have the pictures, yeah definitely. Is that a Checker there?
MAPPLETHORPE: We do want a Checker.
WAGSTAFF: I think we better go (indicating to go across street).
BOCKRIS: Do you ever see William Burroughs round here? He walks around here a lot.
MAPPLETHORPE: I don’t think I’ve ever seen him on the street.
BOCKRIS: I guess he doesn’t go for a stroll or anything like that. (Robert giggles.) He has a nice place. He painted his floor white so he has a completely white apartment.
MAPPLETHORPE: Nothing in it?
BOCKRIS: Just a big conference table in the middle.
MAPPLETHORPE: Does he still have his orgone box?
BOCKRIS: No I don’t think he has that. His places are always so clean.
MAPPLETHORPE: (Sam is waving for a cab.) Is this a Checker?
BOCKRIS: Is it a Checker, yeah? (Cab pulls up at curb.) You climb in with everything and I’ll get in when you’re settled. (Robert says goodbye to Sam, gets in cab with camera, tripod. Sam puts Robert’s large suitcase in front next to driver.)
MAPPLETHORPE: Can I go to Kennedy airport?
BOCKRIS: Nice to meet you. (Shakes with Sam.)
WAGSTAFF: Nice to meet you too. Have a good time. (Cab drives away.)
BOCKRIS: Just want to get this open a little bit for some air (opening window).
MAPPLETHORPE: I’m so nervous that I’m going to leave something behind.
BOCKRIS: I’m terribly nervous too. I’m terribly nervous just because you’re going somewhere. I feel like I’m going too. It’s really exciting.
MAPPLETHORPE: But it’s even more when you have a camera.
BOCKRIS: So tell me about your trip to California. Do you have appointments out there or what?
MAPPLETHORPE: No. I don’t have any appointments but I’m going to LA. I was going to go straight to San Francisco instead of going to LA for a few days. I’m staying with Diane de Beauvau.
BOCKRIS: Is she living out there now?
MAPPLETHORPE: No, she’s out there with Halston.
BOCKRIS: Which airline?
MAPPLETHORPE: TWA.
CAB DRIVER: Kennedy right?
MAPPLETHORPE: Kennedy. You’re spilling it on your coat. Did you get some.
BOCKRIS: No. I’ve got to get a little bit more.
MAPPLETHORPE: So I’ll go out there and see her and take some pictures and Halston will be out there, so hopefully I’ll be able to photograph some of the models because he’s doing a tour …
BOCKRIS: Sniff sniff snooooort. Ha ha ha ha, thanks very much. So, er, then you’ll go down to …
MAPPLETHORPE: Oh then I’m going to San Francisco and I think I’ll stay at a gay hotel. And take some pictures of boys for a show at The Kitchen. That’s one of the reasons I’m going out there. It’s a good place to take sexy pictures.
BOCKRIS: You have a very formal style. Do you feel that your photographs are very formal?
MAPPLETHORPE: If you’re going to go through an ordeal you might as well be meticulous about it. I always hate it if something’s off. You know, for me, if something is a straight line then it should be straight, it shouldn’t be at all off.
BOCKRIS: Let’s find out what this is (taking envelope out of pocket).
MAPPLETHOR
PE: What’s that?
BOCKRIS: Speed.
MAPPLETHORPE: Speed?
BOCKRIS: Yeah. It’s not very strong, it’s quite weak in fact, but it’s quite interesting. Don’t take it if you don’t want.
MAPPLETHORPE: I think I want to sleep on the plane.
BOCKRIS: Okay. This might help you sleep.
MAPPLETHORPE: It’s a down?
BOCKRIS: Yeah it’s not very strong. So you’ve got this formal camera with a tripod?
MAPPLETHORPE: I worked very closely with the people I was photographing. I’d chosen a picture and said let’s do it this way. And so anyway. I never studied Polaroid and never wanted to be a photographer, but when you say it has something formal or old about it, it has an understanding of early photography. There’s no better way of knowing about someone’s work than buying it because you get so involved. First of all, the idea of putting out money makes you look carefully and to hold the photograph in your hand is another thing. I got very involved in the quality that they were able to get and it’s one of the reasons I use slow film. Now I use a two-and-a-quarter and I still have a tripod. I don’t have to use it, but if I get back to New York and see a picture that’s just crooked and I think well I really wanted it not to be crooked …
BOCKRIS: And if you had the tripod it wouldn’t have been. God. It’s interesting, but I didn’t realize you took so many pictures of sex all the time. I’ve seen a lot of those English pictures and I’ve seen some of the structures, and then I’ve seen pictures you’ve taken of people, like Patti, but I haven’t seen much of your sex stuff.
MAPPLETHORPE: The sex stuff is mostly Polaroids. I got away from it a little bit, but now I want to go back.
BOCKRIS: Is it okay to have the window open like this? It doesn’t bother you? (Noise of wind blowing in as cab tears over big bridge.)
MAPPLETHORPE: No. (He picks up a large leather bound portfolio and we start looking at pictures.)
BOCKRIS: Oh this is a great picture. (David Hockney with Henry Geldzahler.)
MAPPLETHORPE: (Flips to sex shots.) I mean this is more of the kind of thing I’m going to show at The Kitchen. (Flips through more.)
BOCKRIS: Those are really nice.
MAPPLETHORPE: But I want to go even further. Earlier things had more to do with sex and I got out of it a little bit because it was putting too many off and I wasn’t making any money out of it.
BOCKRIS: In what way was it putting people off?
MAPPLETHORPE: Well, I’d go to sell a portrait to somebody, get them interested in having a commission, and then they see that (pointing at a big cock with a ring around it) and even if there’s only one, it makes everything have sexual overtones.
BOCKRIS: But actually your reputation on your more straightforward portrait stuff has got you to a position where you can afford to go back and work with this again.
MAPPLETHORPE: The idea is to have a show of the straight portraits and then all of a sudden come out with the sex stuff. And it’s too late. You sort of trick people (giggles). Because I think this work in dealing with sexual images is the most difficult thing and the most interesting. If I was buying one of my photographs I would buy one of those, but unless I establish myself on another level it’s hard to begin.
BOCKRIS: Do you have any cigarettes?
MAPPLETHORPE: I hope so.
BOCKRIS: I’d just like one. Oh a Kool would be very nice. Thanks. Uh I see what you mean exactly.
MAPPLETHORPE: Have you seen this book here?
BOCKRIS: Which one?
MAPPLETHORPE: Did you see this at Norman’s when I came over?
BOCKRIS: No.
MAPPLETHORPE: Well these are mostly London. (Opens up portfolio of formal portraits taken in London and we begin to look through it.)
BOCKRIS: When you were staying there did you have your camera on a tripod in the room all the time or did you have to set it up every time you wanted to do something?
MAPPLETHORPE: No. I just kept it on a tripod in my room.
BOCKRIS: Who’s that?
MAPPLETHORPE: This is Catherine Guinness taken in London before she came to New York.
BOCKRIS: That’s great. I think she’s really beautiful.
MAPPLETHORPE: She’s really good. This is a girl that I’d met when she was a model and I don’t know too many models so I thought it’d be nice to have a model. So I went over there, I got stoned with her and talked to her for a while and showed her photographs. I always show people photographs before I take them. And then we had lunch and then took pictures, so I did get to know her by the time I got to the pictures. I think it’s a big mistake that a lot of photographers make. They have people come over and snap the pictures and that’s it and they don’t have any relationship …
BOCKRIS: Well, you see someone in a different way when you know them, obviously.
MAPPLETHORPE: This is an Irish hustler that I met at The Casserole one night. He was sitting next to me at another table and I was having dinner with a girl and I just thought he was very extraordinary so I went and talked to him a bit and then he came over to visit.
BOCKRIS: This is also really extraordinary. I mean who are these people?
MAPPLETHORPE: Well this is the Bishop of Suffolk and the former Archbishop of Canterbury whose name is Ramsey. I met the Bishop of Suffolk at a dinner party and we got along and talked and he got into the idea of being photographed because the Archbishop was coming that weekend and so he arranged the whole thing.
BOCKRIS: Whose children are they?
MAPPLETHORPE: They’re the children of Colin Tennant who owns the island of Mustique, and he’s fantastic, this boy.
BOCKRIS: He looks fantastic. How old is he?
MAPPLETHORPE: He’s mad but he’s great. He’s nineteen.
BOCKRIS: He looks so young.
MAPPLETHORPE: Well he’s about eighteen there, seventeen … This is Marianne Faithfull.
BOCKRIS: Marianne Faithfull! When was that taken?
MAPPLETHORPE: At Catherine Guinness’s house about a year-and-a-half ago.
BOCKRIS: That’s nice, a really interesting picture of her. Do you like taking pictures of Patti?
MAPPLETHORPE: She’s great to photograph. I know that I’m going to have something great out of each session that I do. I guess a lot has to do with our relationship with each other.
BOCKRIS: Yeah because you’ve known her for ten years. Can you get to know someone for too long to photograph them?
MAPPLETHORPE: I think you can get too involved with them to take photographs. If I was still living in the same house it might be a little hard. It seems to be better after you’re not sexually involved. (Continues flipping through portfolio.)
BOCKRIS: Who’s that?
MAPPLETHORPE: Virginia Dwan’s daughter, Candace. That’s an old boyfriend of mine, David Croland, taken out in Southampton. These were taken on my last trip to California about a year ago.
BOCKRIS: What you like doing most after you know someone for a while is going to their place …
MAPPLETHORPE: For them it’s better as well because they’re more relaxed in their own apartment and it’s more about them. It’s like Avedon’s portfolio of pictures is sort of opposite to my approach. It’s a rather cold approach to the whole thing.
BOCKRIS: It’s not an interpretation of the person at all.
MAPPLETHORPE: No, no exactly it’s …
BOCKRIS: He did a picture of William Burroughs at the same time I was writing a piece about Burroughs and his portrait was really very good. I knew Burroughs by the end of my interpretation well enough to recognize how good his picture was, but that stuff in Rolling Stone left me cold.
MAPPLETHORPE: They’re moving to New York. I’m going to see them out in San Francisco.
BOCKRIS: I think it’s really great that they’re so interested in photography. I’ve always been more interested in photographers than writers. I’ve always been more influenced by photographers, always have had some kind of a close rela
tionship with a photographer at one time or another in my career. I always found I learned more from that.
MAPPLETHORPE: It’s very close to poetry isn’t it?
BOCKRIS: Oh yeah. Hiro said something about photography being closest to the art of conversation.
MAPPLETHORPE: (Flipping pages.) This is in Mustique.
BOCKRIS: Where’s that?
MAPPLETHORPE: Off the coast of Venezuela.
BOCKRIS: When were you down there?
MAPPLETHORPE: It was about March of last year. It was the most extraordinary vacation. This is that girl that I know really well. Her name’s Catherine Tennant. She’s the half sister of Colin who owns the island. (Going through various pictures taken on Mustique.) That’s the Vendredi Treize, a great title for that picture (beautiful shot of yacht off island). Here’s Carolina Herrera who’s as much of a jet-setter as anyone. She and her husband are sort of the couple. They’re charming and attractive, witty and all that. They travel quite a bit. Here’s the whore of the island. Here’s another Venezuelan.
BOCKRIS: These are really fabulous.
MAPPLETHORPE: Yeah. I mean that’s the island really, you know, and it’s about dressing up. It’s about looking like that. It’s the most social …
BOCKRIS: It’s incredible.
MAPPLETHORPE: Kind of out of the way in the middle of nowhere … See I don’t go up to somebody right away and say, “Oh I want to take your picture.” I find it sort of vulgar to do that.
BOCKRIS: So you basically don’t even bring your camera out for a little while when you visit someone. (Looking at picture of Princess Margaret.) What was taking that like?
MAPPLETHORPE: That was sort of tricky to get that picture. She was with Roddy Llewelyn and that was at the same time that all the story came out, the same week I was there, and she was uptight about what her sister would think I suppose. When I took those pictures Roddy had been sitting there and we swapped seats, but I mean that was a situation where I really wanted to take Princess Margaret’s picture. Unfortunately, that was the best I could do which is only a formal snapshot. I had a tripod and I was taking pictures around the table with it. But you have to be very careful, you know to get somebody’s trust … and Colin, the owner, didn’t know me very well, wasn’t quite sure whether to trust me so it was a very …
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