[Swart] was prepared to cook and wash the dishes. But…I took it upon myself, to break the tension and a possible resentment on his part that he has to serve a prisoner by cooking and then washing dishes, and I offered to wash dishes and he refused…He says that is his work. I said, ‘No, we must share it.’ Although he insisted, and he was genuine, but I forced him, literally forced him, to allow me to do the dishes, and we established a very good relationship…A really nice chap, Warder Swart, a very good friend of mine…In fact, man, just give – just give me a plain sheet of paper because I must phone the commissioner of prisons and just phone him again, man.
13. FROM A CONVERSATION WITH RICHARD STENGEL ABOUT WHAT HE LEARNED IN PRISON
I am not in a position to identify any single factor which I can say impressed me, but firstly there was the policy of the government which was ruthless and very brutal and you have to go to jail to discover what the real policy of a government is…behind bars…But at the same time one immediately discovers that not all warders are beasts. Of course that is the main policy and the average warder is a brutal man, but nevertheless there were good fellows, human beings, and who treated us very well and who tried within the regulations and sometimes a little…outside the regulations, outside the regulations, who tried to make us feel at home.
And then there was the question of the militancy of the prisoners. One would have expected with the harsh conditions that existed, especially in the sixties…our people, you know, to be cowed down. Not at all, they fought right from the beginning, and some of the people who led those fights were…hardly known, who are still hardly known even today…And you found, you know, the resistance, the ability of the human spirit to resist injustice right inside prison. And…you learn that you don’t have to have a degree to have the qualities of a leader, the qualities of a man who wants to fight injustice wherever he is…There were many men who could take a…militant stand…who would prefer punishment and even assault, rather than to give in…In the section in which we were, you had people who were literate, widely read, travelled overseas, and it was a pleasure to speak to them…When you sat down and had a discussion with them you felt that you had learned a lot.
14. FROM A CONVERSATION WITH RICHARD STENGEL ABOUT THE POLICE’S HARASSMENT OF WINNIE MANDELA
They had been harassing Comrade Winnie for the twenty-seven years I had been away, [and] what I criticised was the element of propaganda and publicity they gave to it…[When] Comrade Winnie…landed in Jan Smuts [International Airport] after seeing me, there was an unusually large press corps and they asked questions relating to the case, and then Comrade [Winnie] got into the car…and drove to Orlando. She had a bus which accommodated some of [her] supporters. Along the way to Soweto the police stopped…the bus, searched it and seized it. Now that was unnecessary. It was just a way of giving publicity to the country and the world…They could have…quietly and in a dignified way investigated and even [taken] the bus if they thought it was their duty to seize it…But they didn’t do that…Secondly…when they…went to raid…the house they brought the SABC [South African Broadcasting Corporation], and the whole raid was shown [on television]. It was about 3 a.m…and my wife was shown there in [her] nightgown and my daughter…Some of the chaps were stripped naked in the back rooms…So there was a great deal of publicity. It was no longer just a police investigation, it was a propaganda affair. And that is what I criticised.
15. FROM A LETTER TO CHIEF MANGOSUTHU BUTHELEZI, DATED 3 FEBRUARY 1989
One of the most challenging tasks facing the leadership today is that of national unity. At no other time in the history of the liberation movement has it been so crucial for our people to speak with one voice, and for freedom fighters to pool their efforts. Any act or statement, from whatever source, which tends to create or worsen divisions is, in the existing political situation, a fatal error which ought to be avoided at all costs…The struggle is our life and, even though the moment of victory may not be at hand, we can nevertheless make that struggle immensely enriching or absolutely disastrous. In my entire political career few things [have] distressed me as to see our people killing one another as is now happening.14
16. CONVERSATION WITH AHMED KATHRADA ON WHETHER HE HAD ENDORSED A SPEECH BY WINNIE MANDELA ABOUT ‘NECKLACING’ – BURNING PEOPLE ALIVE BY LIGHTING PETROL-SOAKED TYRES AROUND THEIR NECKS
KATHRADA: You see there is this question of you…where you are supposed to have approved of the ‘necklace speech’ of Winnie.
MANDELA: Gee whiz.
KATHRADA:…Anthony Sampson has…sent me a transcript of a conversation…Now we don’t know who made these notes…15 ‘NM approved of WM’s necklace speech. He said that it was a good thing as there has not been one black person who has attacked WM. He however had some reservations on WM’s attack on Rex Gibson of the Star because Gibson had published a powerful defence on the speech a few days earlier’…
MANDELA: I expressly condemned the thing.
KATHRADA: [Sampson] says, ‘Regarding the contentious matter of Madiba’s alleged comments on Winnie’s “necklace speech” I thought you should see the document in which my remarks are based since this is apparently authentic and is in a public archive. I do not think I can ignore it, but, of course, I can state that the president firmly contradicts it. But it would be useful to explain or speculate how this misunderstanding came about.’
MANDELA: But how can he not take us into trust? Who is it that kept these archives?…There is nothing of the sort. I condemned the thing unreservedly…
KATHRADA:…I have also done it…
MANDELA: Absolutely untrue.
17. CONVERSATION WITH RICHARD STENGEL ABOUT STUDYING IN PRISON
STENGEL: Was that enjoyable in prison, to be studying law, or did it seem distant from what you were going through at the time? Or distant from the struggle?
MANDELA: No, it was. Law – I’m very much interested in law. But I was too busy on Robben Island. I made no progress whatsoever in studying. First year I was all right, second year I was all right, but the final year, I just didn’t have proper time to study because of the political problems, and I think I failed three times, the final. It is only…when I went to Pollsmoor [Prison] that I got a chance of…concentrating, especially when I was alone. Then I knew, right from the beginning, that I would pass. But apart from that, you know, I abandoned – I literally abandoned it.
18. FROM A CONVERSATION WITH RICHARD STENGEL
In the ANC [African National Congress], in addressing any particular problem, we normally start from opposite poles and debate the matter thoroughly…then reach a consensus which makes our decisions very strong. Generally speaking, on the island, Comrade [Harry] Gwala led one group with a particular approach and…because of his knowledge, his ability, his experience, he was able to influence a large number of our comrades.16 But on almost every issue we eventually reach a consensus. And we were grateful for the fact that we had looked at the matter from all angles…On the question, for example, [of] the relationship between the ANC and the [Communist] Party, he was inclined to blur the distinction, and many of our debates were due to that fact. That whereas some of us wanted to keep the difference very wide, very clear, he tended to blur it. And there was perhaps some reason for that in prison because we wanted to speak with one voice. But still, it was not an accurate approach because the Party and the ANC have always been totally different even though they cooperated.
19. FROM A CONVERSATION WITH RICHARD STENGEL
Well, I used to like reading, as you know, during those days, before I was really busy…It was one of the things I miss now, you know, which I enjoyed in prison…I could wake up, have a bath, wait for the hospital doctor…then have breakfast, then I was…free to sit down and study…That what-you-call scene of Kutozov [in War and Peace], discussing whether they should defend Moscow or not, that was beautiful. When everybody was saying we cannot abandon the capital, his concern was that…the Russian army should be saved for winter b
ecause…Napoleon’s army would never be able to meet the Russian army during winter…‘I’m not concerned with buildings; that’s just emotion. I’m concerned with saving my army from destruction.’ And that was the attitude of [Zulu king] Shaka, too.17 Shaka, when fighting…retreated against an attack by one of the tribes, and when they came to the Royal Kraal, then…his counsellors said, ‘No, let’s now resist; let’s stand.’ He says, ‘Why should I defend buildings?…Buildings can be destroyed today and built tomorrow, but an army which is destroyed, it will take years to build.’…[He] retreated, but made sure that along the way there was not a single morsel of food which the enemy could get – drove away their stock, carried away their mealies [maize] and millet, beans and so on. Made sure that there was no food at all. Then…this enemy army got tired and hungry…When they were retreating, he followed them – very close – and then…the enemy would stand…wanting a conflict to finish the threat. But he wouldn’t, he wouldn’t attack. When they stood he would stop and when they advanced he would retreat.
But eventually the enemy withdrew. They were now hungry, and when they slept…[Shaka] sent [his] men to mix amongst them because the uniform was the same…and at dead of night Shaka’s men would stab the chap next to him and then cry, you know, and you say…the wizard: ‘Umthakathi’s attacking me,’ and everybody gets up, you see? So they didn’t sleep; he kept them awake and preparing to attack them when they are tired, you know, hungry, you know? So that went on, you see…until they reached…a big river where…there was one crossing and…the enemy had to break its ranks, in order to cross. When half of them had crossed, he then charged, and attacked them and wiped them out…then crossed, to wipe out the remainder. So he had tactics, you see, like those of Kutuzov against Napoleon.
20. CONVERSATION WITH AHMED KATHRADA
MANDELA: I could have made a lot of money when I was in Victor Verster. You know, two newspapers, totally different…
KATHRADA: Ah.
MANDELA:…came to take a picture of me and one promised me half a million.
KATHRADA: That appeared in the papers.
MANDELA: Is that so?
KATHRADA: No, no, wait a bit or was [Warder Christo] Brand telling me? But I knew of that.
MANDELA: Half a million!
KATHRADA: Ja. Oh ja. No, Brand told us.
MANDELA: So I say, ‘No, I wouldn’t agree to that thing.’
KATHRADA: Ja.
MANDELA: I said no.
KATHRADA: But wasn’t that while you were in the clinic [Constantiaberg Medi-Clinic]?
MANDELA: Hey?
KATHRADA: Wasn’t it while you were in the clinic?
MANDELA: The other one was while I was in the clinic.
KATHRADA: Ja.
MANDELA: But the other one was at Victor Verster. I say, ‘Look man, I’m negotiating, and for these people to see that I’ve abused my position here…
KATHRADA: Ah.
MANDELA:…it would destroy my credibility. I can’t do that.’ They say, ‘Half a million rand.’
KATHRADA: Ja.
MANDELA:…As poor as I am with children and grandchildren, you know?
KATHRADA: Ah.
MANDELA: And I didn’t want to think because I thought if I stopped and [thought] I would be tempted.
KATHRADA: Ja.
MANDELA: And I said, ‘No, no, no.’ I didn’t want, I don’t want [it] at all, and I became abrupt and loud, you see, because I thought also there was, you know, the bugging instruments.
KATHRADA: Ja.
MANDELA: Because we were inside the…building, in the lounge.
KATHRADA: Ah.
MANDELA: And I said, ‘No, no, no, no, no. I don’t want to consider that. I’m negotiating, you see. Perhaps if, some other time if I was not engaged in negotiations, I could think about it. Not now!’ And I was very abrupt.
KATHRADA: Ah.
MANDELA: Then they said, ‘Well, what about 750,000?’ I said, ‘You can give me 750 million.’
KATHRADA: Ah.
MANDELA: I won’t take it. So I just turned it down. And then when I was at the, what-you-call, at the clinic, another one. This one was a million.
KATHRADA: Ja. That was Time magazine, I think.
MANDELA: Ah, I think you’re right.
KATHRADA: Ja.
MANDELA: Yes. So I refused, and poor, you know, to be poor is a terrible thing.
KATHRADA: No, I have also written about that when you suffer deprivation in jail.
MANDELA: Yes.
KATHRADA: You are tempted…
MANDELA: That’s right.
KATHRADA:…by many things.
MANDELA: Absolutely.
KATHRADA: Ja.
MANDELA: Absolutely. Even, you know, outside, you know, just have to get the habit, you know, of going to report to your fellows, when you have been offered something.
21. FROM A LETTER TO NURSE SISTER SHAUNA BRADLEY, DATED 21 AUGUST 198918
One morning I listened to a radio sermon in which the preacher was giving advice on how to face problems. He pointed out that troubles are always of a temporary nature and that, depending on a person’s approach, they are often followed by happier moments.
22. CONVERSATION WITH RICHARD STENGEL
STENGEL: People say, ‘Nelson Mandela’s great problem is that he’s too willing to see the good in other people.’ How do you respond to that?
MANDELA: Well that’s what many people say. That has been said right from my adolescence and I don’t know…There may be an element of truth in that. But when you are a public figure you have to accept the integrity of other people until there is evidence to the contrary. And when you have no evidence to the contrary, and people do things which appear to be good, what reason have you got to suspect them? To say that they are doing good because they have got an ulterior motive? It is until that evidence comes out that you then either deal with that point, with that instance of infidelity, and forget about it. Because that’s how you can get on in life with people. You have to recognise that people are produced by the mud in the society in which you live and that therefore they are human beings. They have got good points, they have got weak points. Your duty is to work with human beings as human beings, not because you think they are angels. And, therefore, once you know that this man has got this virtue and he has got this weakness you work with them and you accommodate that weakness and you try and help him to overcome that weakness. I don’t want to be frightened by the fact that a person has made certain mistakes and he has got human frailties. I can’t allow myself to be influenced by that. And that is why many people criticise [me].
And then in a position which I hold, your main task is to keep different factions together and therefore you must listen very carefully when somebody comes to explain a problem to you, the difficulty of working with others. But you, at the same time, you must, whilst listening and addressing that problem, realise that the dominating factor is that you must keep the organisation together. You can’t divide the organisation. People must be able to come to you…so that you can exercise the role of keeping the organisation together.
23. FROM A CONVERSATION WITH RICHARD STENGEL
People will feel I see too much good in people. So it’s a criticism I have to put up with and I’ve tried to adjust to, because whether it is so or not, it is something which I think is profitable. It’s a good thing to assume, to act on the basis that…others are men of integrity and honour…because you tend to attract integrity and honour if that is how you regard those with whom you work. And one has made a great deal of progress in developing personal relationships because you [make] the basic assumption…that those you deal with are men of integrity. I believe in that.
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An entry from a desk calendar in which Mandela notes that on 21 July 1976 there was a ‘Raid’.
Mandela kept a series of desk calendars on Robben Island and in Pollsmoor and Vict
or Verster prisons, which run from 1976 to 1989. Together with the notebooks, they are the most direct and unmediated records of his private thoughts and everyday experiences. He did not make entries every day. In fact, there are sometimes weeks where he made none at all, which explains some of the gaps in dates that appear in the selection that makes up chapter 11. Of the entries that do exist, the most important and most interesting have been brought together in this chapter. Even though these entries represent a small percentage of the total, the overall tenor of the calendars has not been altered substantially. The inclusion of some entries may seem strange. It should be borne in mind, however, that taken-for-granted necessities in the outside world were actually precious luxuries in prison. Milk for tea, for example, was an event. So, too, were visits and letters. And the single word ‘Raid’ masks a deeper menace.
18 AUGUST 1976
Received information on arrest of Zami.
C.O. [Commanding Officer] denies that birthday card came
23 AUGUST 1976
Informed by W/O [Warrant Officer] Barnard that birthday card withheld
8 DECEMBER 1976
Begin reading ‘Bury my heart’ Dee Brown: sent letter U[niversity of] London1
23 DECEMBER 1976
Zindzi’s birthday
17 JANUARY 1977
Gossiping about others is certainly a vice, a virtue when about oneself.
20 JANUARY 1977
Dreamt of Kgatho falling into ditch and injuring leg
21 FEBRUARY 1977
Raid by approximately 15 warders under W/O Barnard
2 MARCH 1977
Heavy tremor at 6.55 am2
25 MARCH 1977
Conversations with Myself Page 19
