… that member states must try and resolve their problems through peaceful means. And I urged the IRA [Irish Republican Army] and the British government to… resolve their problems peacefully, and I was then asked this question in the House of Commons, and I repeated what I said. [chuckles] But the chap who actually raised this question and criticised me for having made this suggestion… was jeered, booed by other MPs… He was booed. Some said, ‘Nonsense’, ‘Rubbish!’ [chuckles]
11. FROM A CONVERSATION WITH RICHARD STENGEL ABOUT QUEEN BEATRIX AND QUEEN ELIZABETH II
I found the Dutch queen very interesting, very intelligent, well-informed, very confident, very accessible you know? There was no rigid protocol… I spent a very lovely time with her and I was just rather amazed by the amount of information that she had, and her keenness to discuss world problems… Very fine lady indeed.
[Queen Elizabeth] is one of the longest reigning monarchs and she is a fine lady. When you talk to her, she has a wonderful sense of humour… I watched her during the Commonwealth Conference in Harare in 1991, I think. Dr Mahathir, the prime minister of Malaysia was asked to propose a toast and… he said that, ‘Well, we used to be under the British Empire and Queen Elizabeth was there and we had a sultan who did not rule and we had a viceroy and advisors whose advice had to be accepted. We are members of a Commonwealth where the wealth is not common’… She was enjoying all these jokes, you know… Thereafter I had an opportunity of speaking to her… She was just sparkling and completely at ease. I thought she was a great lady, also very sharp. Very sharp. There may be a great deal of formality around her, but… as an individual [she] is a very simple person, very plain. I formed a good impression of her.
12. FROM A CONVERSATION WITH RICHARD STENGEL ABOUT HIS TRIP TO FRANCE
[I] was received by [President] François Mitterrand in grand style… It’s a… misconception to think that socialists act like rascals, you know?… The arrangement was that I should approach from one side of the square and he would approach from another and we would meet in the middle of the square… He was there with Danielle [his wife] and I was there with Winnie and it was raining. It was very difficult weather conditions, but he had… his raincoat; I had [mine]… We met in the middle, shook hands; then we went to something like a tent and met there, exchanged views. I briefed him about the situation in the country and then we went for dinner…
We were given one of the executive jets from Paris to Geneva. The weather was very bad and… people were very anxious and I thought I should make a joke… I said, ‘If anything happens to my wife I’ll sue these chaps.’ People didn’t see the joke; they were very much worried because of the bumps and so on, you see. Because if something happened to the plane we will all die so I wouldn’t have an opportunity of instituting an action… They were so anxious that they didn’t catch the joke.
13. A CONVERSATION WITH RICHARD STENGEL
MANDELA: Gee whiz; the Pope is also an outstanding person.4 Humble, very humble. And I had an audience with him for about thirty minutes, if I’m not mistaken. Then the others, the rest of the delegation were called, and he gave us medals and prayed for us… I was impressed, you know, because when I was in jail I read a story… he had a holiday in the Alps… and… was then walking with one of his colleagues and he suddenly stopped and he says, ‘By the way, this is Nelson Mandela’s birthday today.’ There was that story… He just said, ‘Do you remember it’s Nelson Mandela’s birthday today?’
STENGEL: Oh, the Pope said that?
MANDELA: The Pope said that; he remembered that. And so he is a man who appears to take more than an ordinary superficial interest in our affairs in South Africa… He received us very well… I briefed him on the situation and he then made the statement that he fully supports the struggle against apartheid and he wished us well and strength… Yes, he’s a linguist, man!He’s a linguist. Did you know that he also plays the guitar, you know?… He’s quite a wonderful chap. [laughs] And then the most widely travelled pope. The most widely travelled pope… I met Prime Minister Andreotti… Prime Minister Andreotti and I also met the president…5 How can I forget the name of the president? [laughs]
14. FROM A CONVERSATION WITH RICHARD STENGEL
In another country – I won’t mention it by name because people can be very sensitive in Africa – in another country, we [got] the impression, both in prison and when I came out, that that is a democratic country, because there are elections, or so we thought… So I am well received there, treated as a head of state and so on, and at the banquet in the evening, I complimented the president for having made it possible for democracy to be introduced in this country and for the fact that he allows the people to determine who should form the government. But whilst I was talking, I saw some people… smiling sarcastically… [laughs] And so I asked one of our guys, ‘What is the position here?’ He says, ‘Well, you said very nice things but did you know how many people are in prison here, for no other reason except that they oppose the government, by peaceful methods? They want to challenge them in elections and because [the government] fears them, they have put them in jail.’ [laughs] Very difficult… [Now] when I go to a country, I make it a point… [first] to read some tract about that country, the broad features of their political system, you know, and the problems that they have.
15. FROM A CONVERSATION WITH RICHARD STENGEL ABOUT MEETING FIDEL CASTRO
Castro is a very striking chap… We addressed a meeting together. What is the name of that town, man? A crowd like that in a small country? It was a fantastic crowd; I think there were about 300,000 people. Everyone seated on chairs. He spoke about three hours without a piece of paper, quoted figures, and he showed that America was bankrupt, you know? And not a single person left except to go to the toilet and come back… I was tremendously impressed by Castro and also by his humility – very humble chap, you know? When… I [was] driving with him through the city, he just sat down and folded his arms, and I was the person who was waving to the crowd …After speaking, we… went into the crowd; he was greeting everybody… I noticed that he will greet… a white person, then he goes to greet somebody who’s dark. I don’t know whether that was purely accidental or deliberate. [He was] very warm, talked to them for some time… I then realised that this enthusiasm and waving was not really for me as we were driving through the city; it was directed to Castro… Nobody bothered about me at all [laughs]… I was tremendously impressed by him.
16. FROM A CONVERSATION WITH RICHARD STENGEL ABOUT VISITING KENYA, UGANDA AND MOZAMBIQUE
In both Uganda and Kenya I found the climate… very interesting… In Uganda the… soil is so rich that you can literally throw anything down – a seed – and it will grow. They are self-sufficient in… things like fruits… and a number of [other] agricultural products… [In] Kenya I found that they could plant mealies [maize] throughout the year… They had three, what-you-call, three stages of mealies growing: one ripe, the other just about to be ripe… the other one still just above the ground… which indicated how good their climate is from the point of view of agriculture… In South Africa… except [for] those farms, you see, where there is… sufficient irrigation, mealies is planted once a year. But we were well received in all these countries… I met [President] Chissano in Mozambique, in Maputo. It was clear that the war had damaged the economy of the country. They were going through a very hard time, but I thought Chissano was handling the problems very well. And I also met Mrs Graça Machel, the wife of the late president of Mozambique, and I was very happy. I was meeting her for the first time. A very impressive woman and striking personality. I spent about three days in Maputo. The day we were leaving there was a bomb scare which came from South Africa… There was [supposed to be] a bomb [on] that plane… We had to be taken out of the plane, they had to search [it] and our luggage had to be kept back. They had to go through it to search it properly and to send it the following day… When we came back there was tight security at the airport because these alarmists h
ad also made a threat that they would deal with me when I come back. But nothing happened.
17. FROM A NOTEBOOK
Discussion with President George W Bush
White House 12 November 2001.
How much time have I got?
1.
Compliments on manner in which he has handled important issues
Meeting various Heads of States Especially Presidents Mbeki and Obasanjo
2.
Afghanistan
My press statement.
No pulling out before B.L. [Osama bin Laden] is flushed out.
Civilian casualties unfortunate, but that happens in every war.
3.
Palestine – Almost 30 years of fruitless efforts.
My proposal
Arafat affair unfortunate
4.
Burundi increase in funding6
5.
Lockerbie7
‘The plundering of indigenous land, exploitation of its mineral wealth and other raw materials, confinement of its people to specific areas, and the restriction of their movement have, with notable exceptions, been the cornerstones of colonialism throughout the land.’
.....................................................................................
Excerpt from the unpublished sequel to his autobiography.
1. FROM THE UNPUBLISHED SEQUEL TO HIS AUTOBIOGRAPHY
The plundering of indigenous land, exploitation of its mineral wealth and other raw materials, confinement of its people to specific areas, and the restriction of their movement have, with notable exceptions, been the cornerstones of colonialism throughout the land.
This was the form British colonialism took in South Africa, so much so, that after the passing of the Land Act of 1913 by the South African government, a white minority of barely 15 per cent of the country’s population owned about 87 per cent of the land, while the black majority – Africans, Coloureds and Indians – occupied less than 13 per cent. They were forced to live in squalor and poverty or to seek employment on white farms, in the mines and urban areas.
When the Nationalist Party came to power in 1948, Afrikaners acted with unbelievable cruelty and sought to rob blacks even of these meager rights to land they still possessed.
Communities large and small, who had occupied areas from time immemorial, where their ancestors and beloved ones were buried, were mercilessly uprooted and thrown into the open veld, [left] there to fend for themselves. And this was done by a white community led by an educated but infamous clergy[man] and his successors who used their skills and religion to commit various atrocities against the black majority which God forbade. Yet they hypocritically claimed that their evil schemes were inspired by God.
(Quote: Sol Plaatje on the The Land Act of 1913)
2. CONVERSATION WITH AHMED KATHRADA ABOUT THE PRESSURE OF BEING RECOGNISED
MANDELA: Oh, by the way, did I tell you that one day I walked from Lower Houghton to Michael’s house? Michael Harmel and Eli Weinberg?1
KATHRADA: In those days?
MANDELA:… No, I say I walked last Sunday. I walked from Lower Houghton right up to their houses, their old houses.
KATHRADA: Gee whiz.
MANDELA: And, but of course Michael’s house was owned by somebody else, but I was able to make it out to find it.
KATHRADA: The Weinberg house is still there.
MANDELA: No, it’s still there.
KATHRADA: Sheila is still there.2
MANDELA: And Sheila came whilst I was there because there was – there were doubts because it’s now fenced in a different way, you know, with poles…
KATHRADA: Ja.
MANDELA:… and so on. And, but I was sure this was the house and then whilst I was still there some old lady came and said, ‘No, that’s the former house of Michael Harmel’, and then Sheila also joined us.
KATHRADA: Oh.
MANDELA: Mmmhh.
KATHRADA: I hope you were there with your security.
MANDELA:… Yes… the police were there and security.
KATHRADA: Oh. Is it far from there?
MANDELA: I took about a little over an hour to reach it.
KATHRADA: It’s quite a distance, man.
MANDELA: Quite a distance. But I was walking really very slowly, not in a hurry.
KATHRADA: But doesn’t it attract a lot of attention?
MANDELA: Ooh Christ! Don’t say that, don’t say that.
KATHRADA: Ah.
MANDELA: You know, it’s a difficult life, this one.
KATHRADA: Ja.
MANDELA: Not being able to do what you want.
KATHRADA: Ja, it’s very…
MANDELA: Because walks are something I like. It’s difficult now. It’s better here… in Westbrook because the yard itself is…
KATHRADA: It’s very big, yes.
3. CONVERSATION WITH AHMED KATHRADA ABOUT INDIVIDUAL POLICE OFFICERS
KATHRADA: You know the day we went to Howick?
MANDELA: Aha.
KATHRADA: That colonel who was there… he told me that Van Wyk is farming. He even told me where he was, but I forget now.
MANDELA: Is that so?
KATHRADA: Mmm.
MANDELA: Well you know that he made very good statements.
KATHRADA: Ja, in the Sunday Times?
MANDELA: Mmm.
KATHRADA: Where he said that he would be prepared to serve under Mandela.
MANDELA: That’s right, yes.
KATHRADA: He’d be ‘honoured’ to serve…
MANDELA: Mmhh. It’s good to see these chaps. Dirker died, hey?
KATHRADA: No, he’s very much alive… Some, some journalist went to see him
MANDELA: Is that so?
KATHRADA: And he [Dirker] said, ‘Look are you a member of the AWB [Afrikaner Weerstandsbeweging]?’ Dirker said. [The journalist] said no… [Dirker said,] ‘Then I don’t want to speak to you’.
MANDELA: He’s AWB?
KATHRADA: Ja. Well Dirker would be, man.
MANDELA: That’s true.
KATHRADA: He… is in Oudtshoorn. You know he comes from Oudtshoorn…
MANDELA: Is he also farming? Or…
KATHRADA: I don’t know if he’s farming but he’s in Oudtshoorn …That chap was a very crude fellow.
MANDELA: Gee whiz. And what happened to Kruger? Do you know?
KATHRADA: Nothing at all. I haven’t heard at all.
MANDELA: No, that’s one chap I want to see, man.
KATHRADA: Ja. Now that was a very decent chap.
MANDELA: Absolutely.
KATHRADA: Ja. It would be good, you see, if one day one can get hold of some of these old special branch fellows; they’ll tell us who’s where…
MANDELA: Who can we get, man? Because, you know, it’s such an act of generosity… to say to these fellows, can we have a braai [barbecue]?
KATHRADA: Exactly. That, that’s just going through my mind now. If we could think of some little function where we invite these chaps, police, warders, you know? If we can get hold of them, it’ll be a very nice gesture.
MANDELA: Absolutely, man… And, if you remind me, you know, on Wednesday, I can ask [General] Van der Merwe… to come and see me and to give him this task to trace these people, you know?…
KATHRADA: Well that would be a very good thing.
MANDELA: Yes. Oh, I am sure Dirker would come.
KATHRADA: Of course, now he would come…
MANDELA: And old Van Wyk. What about the beast, Swanepoel. Is he still alive?
KATHRADA: Yes… I don’t know if you still remember. There was an invasion of the Israeli Embassy in Fox Street? In 1967, [19]68.
MANDELA: Oh, I see, I see, yes. That’s right.
KATHRADA: There was a siege.
MANDELA: Yes, that’s right, yes.
KATHRADA: Where some people invaded… [And] occupied it …and then there was some shoot-out or…
MANDELA: That’s right, yes. I remember that.
/> KATHRADA:… Swanepoel was in charge of [the police operation] and this person was sentenced to twenty years or something. Now [he] is released and he went to visit Swanepoel and Swanepoel says… he became one of the family… visited often, and now, he was wondering, he hasn’t visited him for a long time, what’s happened to… this chap…
MANDELA: Man, that would be very good to call these chaps.
KATHRADA: Ja, even Swanepoel. Why not?
MANDELA: Yes, yes…
KATHRADA: But we must think about it because there’s a lot of hostility towards Swanepoel, hey?
MANDELA: Yes.
KATHRADA: Then of course there is also hostility against other police who tortured… our people.
MANDELA: Yes…
KATHRADA: A chap like Mac [Maharaj], for instance. I don’t know if he’ll ever agree to [come], because Swanepoel…
MANDELA: Tortured him?
KATHRADA: Ja… Andimba [Toivo ja Toivo], very badly too.3
MANDELA: Mmm.
KATHRADA: Zeph [Mothopeng].4
MANDELA: Yes.
KATHRADA: A lot of people were tortured by him.
MANDELA: Mmm.
4. CONVERSATION WITH AHMED KATHRADA ABOUT EXAGGERATION
KATHRADA: Aha. OK. Then, page 156 [of Long Walk to Freedom draft]… ‘Now the South African security forces would know precisely where I was, which is precisely what we wanted.’ Now, in a later part of this chapter you are talking of your trip to England, where you did not want people to know.
MANDELA: No, that’s – that is an exaggeration… That is what we wanted. We never wanted that.
KATHRADA: Aha.
MANDELA: Just take that out.
KATHRADA: OK.
MANDELA: You see, the question of dramatising things, even when they are not correct…
KATHRADA: Aha.
MANDELA:… is a typical American thing.
5. CONVERSATION WITH AHMED KATHRADA ABOUT PERSONAL ISSUES
KATHRADA: Then [page] 115 [of Long Walk to Freedom draft]: ‘How did Winnie react to your declaration that you wanted to marry her – you wanted her to marry you? Must have been quite astounding?’
Conversations with Myself Page 27
