Isaac sits up straight in his chair, looking intently at Adam.
“Not having an immortal soul does change how the end time events would play out. It also changes how mankind relates to God, as well as my understandings of how we come to be with God. These beliefs would all need to be re-thought. I'm just not sure I agree with your belief about our souls dying.
Why is it that N.T. Wright or my professors don't believe anything like what you propose? They have diligently studied the subject for decades. All of N.T.'s material is thoroughly researched, documented and peer reviewed. How is it that an old trucker should know more about the subject that all of the scholars that have devoted their entire lives to the subjects of God and religion? Your ideas are intriguing and interesting to discus, but how can I take you seriously when you have no formal background in the study of God. You just aren't credible.”
Adam pays attention to his driving as he rounds a long sweeping left hand corner and is forced to do several down shift as he ascends a steep hill. Considering Isaac's rebuffs, he does some slow deep breathing to calm himself before responding further. He starts to talk just as the truck starts to pick up speed on the backside of the hill.
“I suppose then, I am the living proof for the verse that says, God calls the foolish and the week to confound the wise and mighty, for I am the most foolish of all, just a dumb old trucker. Wasn't Jesus rejected by the Jews for basically the same reason? Because he was a nobody, the son of a carpenter from a small town, in a backwater part of the country.”
Isaac was quick to respond with sarcasm. “Oh, so now you are comparing yourself to Jesus?”
“No,” Adam said forcefully. “I am not nearly as Jesus like as I should be. I am only pointing out that having credentials and schooling isn't what one needs to understand the plans of God. In fact, having lofty credentials probably hinders your understanding of God. If you have your time and energy invested in those credentials, you could have years of work and a career to lose if you should come to any new understanding.
My first rule in buying things is, never believe the salesman. I like to prove their claims through an unbiased third party. My source for Godly wisdom is, as we agreed on at the start, the word of God as recorded in the Bible. The King James is good, but I find it helpful to use the Strong's concordance to find the proper word used in the original manuscript, like we did to find the proper usage for the word soul in Genesis.
Besides the disciples were not chosen from the elite of society, but from the bottom and despised. My points of view come from the Bible, not from books written by learned men. I do my best not to have any non-biblical preconceived ideas or agendas. Like we said, if it doesn't come from the word of God, it cannot be relied on.”
“We did say that,” Isaac responded reluctantly. “I better look up your references just to be safe.” He finds what he thinks they are and reads them loudly.
“Mark 6:1-6 KJV.
And he went out from thence, and came into his own country; and his disciples follow him.
2 And when the sabbath day was come, he began to teach in the synagogue: and many hearing him were astonished, saying, From whence hath this man these things? and what wisdom is this which is given unto him, that even such mighty works are wrought by his hands?
3 Is not this the carpenter, the son of Mary, the brother of James, and Joses, and of Juda, and Simon? and are not his sisters here with us? And they were offended at him.
4 But Jesus, said unto them, A prophet is not without honour, but in his own country, and among his own kin, and in his own house.
5 And he could there do no mighty work, save that he laid his hands upon a few sick folk, and healed them.
6 And he marvelled because of their unbelief. And he went round about the villages, teaching.
And here in 1 Corinthians 1:18-31.
For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.
19 For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent.
20 Where is the wise? where is the scribe? where is the disputer of this world? hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world?
21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.
22 For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom:
23 But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness;
24 But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.
25 Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men; and the weakness of God is stronger than men.
26 For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called:
27 But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty;
28 And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are:
29 That no flesh should glory in his presence.
30 But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:
31 That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord.
Are those the verses you were referring to?” Isaac asks, wanting to get the right references.
“I think so, there might be others, but those give us a pretty good picture of what I am referring too,” Adam agrees.
Smiling broadly, not wanting to let the opportunity to tease Adam pass, Isaac says with a laugh. “Well you're certainly right. You do resemble those verses about the weak and foolish.”
“HA. HA,” Adam smiles. “And as far as N.T. Wright is concerned, his book The Resurrection Of The Son Of God, was to prove that Jesus was bodily resurrected from the dead. He was proving the resurrection story wasn't just fantasy made up by the disciples. He didn't like the distorted resurrection teachings that modern scholars and clergy were bringing into mainstream Christianity. If you look in my copy I have the page references of him saying that.”
Isaac picks up Adam's worn copy of the book and checks the hand written notes scrawled on the first few pages. “I think this is it here on page 7 and 8.” Reading silently he then sums up what was written. “It basically states what you said; he wanted to set the discussion on a historically accurate footing.”
“That's right,” Adam said. “He had a narrow agenda based on proving the resurrection of Jesus in history. N.T. wasn't looking at how all of the covered material showed God's plan of salvation for the world. He doesn't even let the facts he uncovers affect his belief in an intermediate state after death, he seems to believe our conscious souls go to heaven to be with God. Even though his research shows this to be a pagan belief, not held by Paul or the Pharisee sect that Paul came out of. Mr. Wright fails to connect the facts that his research highlights to his own beliefs, instead he stays mired in his trust of conjecture and speculation.”
“Whoa, that is a pretty bold statement. I’d like to see you prove that!” Isaac says with astonishment. “His book has been scrutinized by many professionals; I doubt they would have missed something as glaring as that.”
“They would miss it if they weren’t looking for it; because they have similar beliefs as N.T. It was a surprise to you that man was mortal in the Garden of Eden. Other thoughts never occurred to you either. That's why I say Satin has deceived the whole world with his, ‘though shall not surely die’ lie. Take any faith, with the exception of an evolutionary atheist; they all will have some kind of a belief in an afterlife. The belief that mankind possesses an eternal soul is universal and has been with us from our collective beginnings.”
“Don't try and change the subject, w
e have been through all of that. I want to see your proof about N.T. Wright's book,” Isaac demands.
“OK. I have the notes there on the first pages. You'll need to look them up as I can't do that and drive at the same time.” Adam explained as he corrected the trucks currant trajectory from off of the highway’s paved shoulder.
Isaac checks the books front cover for Adam's scrawling notes. “Here is a prospect. You have the middle of page 31 flagged as, resurrection belief. Let’s see what it says.” Isaac starts to read out of the well-worn paperback book.
“Thus, when the ancients spoke of resurrection, whether denying it or affirming it, they were telling a two-step story. Resurrection itself would be preceded (and was preceded even in the case of Jesus) by an interim period of death-as-a-state. Where we find a single-step story death-as-event being followed at once by a final state, for instance of disembodied bliss – the texts are not talking about resurrection. Resurrection involves a definite content (some sort of re-embodiment) and a definite narrative shape (a two-step story, not a single-step one). This meaning is constant throughout the ancient world, until we come to a new coinage in the second century.
The meaning of 'resurrection' as 'life after “life after death”' cannot be overemphasized, not least because much writing continues to use 'resurrection' as a virtual synonym for 'life after death' in the popular sense. It has sometimes been proposed that this usage was current even for the first century, but the evidence is simply not there. If we are to engage in history, rather than projecting the accidents of (some) contemporary usage on to the remote past, it is vital to keep these distinctions in mind.
So what's your point? It talks about the definition and understanding for the word resurrection.”
Adam looks bewildered at Isaac's lack of ability to see what was so plain to him. “You read it without understanding. The part that said:
'Where we find a single-step story death-as-event being followed at once by a final state, for instance of disembodied bliss – the texts are not talking about resurrection.'
That is telling us the belief in a disembodied state is not referred to as resurrection in the Bible,” Adam explains.
“'Resurrection involves a definite content (some sort of re-embodiment) and a definite narrative shape (a two-step story, not a single-step one). This meaning is constant throughout the ancient world, until we come to a new coinage in the second century,'”
Adam continues to explain what was just read. “The idea that resurrection meant a disembodied state didn't show up till the second century. At least a hundred years after Jesus died. After the apostles were dead and the texts inspired by God were completed. When the scriptures talk about the resurrection of the dead for mankind they are referring to a two-step story. Take a look and see.”
“You mean like in 1 Corinthians 15:20-23.” Isaac brakes into the conversation and starts to read aloud a verse he had on another tab.
“20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.
21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.”
“Exactly, mankind is to be resurrected as Jesus was, a two-step story. We follow the example of Jesus, into our new lives with God,” added Adam agreeably. “The idea that we become a disembodied spirit immediately after death is not a biblical teaching, but a pagan one. We need to believe what God tells us if we want to worship him in Spirit and truth.”
“I have that verse.
John 4:24
God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.
We read that one before, but I just like it,” quipped Isaac.
Adam nods. “Yes it is a good one and it highlights the importance of knowing the truth about God and his word to the best of our ability. We need to take care to prove that what we believe comes from the word of God. I know Christians that won't do any yoga poses, or use acupuncture for healing, because the origins of those arts stem from paganism. Yet they believe they go to heaven and become a disembodied spirit as soon as they die, wrongly believing it to be a Christian truth. Continue with my notes and see what history Mr. Wright uncovers in his book.”
“OK,” agrees Isaac. He had a lot of respect for Mr. Wright and his research. Isaac was starting to become curious as to what he and his professors missed in N.T.'s large book.
Adam continued to explain further. “N.T. goes into great detail on the pagan beliefs of death and where people end up after they die. These pagan beliefs have a lot in common to the Christian beliefs of today. Their ideas did not come from God or his written word.”
Isaac gets busy at finding more pertinent points out of Adam's scrawled notes. As he finds them he reads them out loud so they can be explored further. “Page 49.
Since for many Greeks 'the immortals' were the gods, there is always the suggestion, at least by implication, that human souls are in some way divine. Because the soul is this sort of thing, it not only survives the death of the body but is delighted to do so. If it had known earlier where its real interests lay it would have been longing for this very moment. It will now flourish in a new way, released from the prison that had hitherto enslaved it. Its new environment will be just what it should have wanted. Popular opinion would attempt to bring the dead back if that were possible, but this would be a mistake. Death is frequently defined precisely in terms of the separation of soul and body, seen as something to be desired.
Hades, in other words, is not a place of gloom, but (in principle at least) of delight. It is not terrifying, as so many ordinary people believe, but offers a range of pleasing activities - of which philosophical discourse may be among the chief, not surprisingly since attention to such matters is the best way, during the present time, of preparing the soul for its future. The reason people do not return from Hades is that life is so good there; they want to stay, rather than to return to the world of space, time and matter. Plato suggests that the word ‘Hades’ itself is derived, in terms both of etymology and basic meaning, either from the word for ‘unseen’, or from the word for ‘knowledge’.
What happens to souls in Hades - at least, to souls who go there to begin with - is then far more interesting than anything envisaged in Homer. Judgement is passed according to the person’s previous behaviour: we see here the philosophical roots of those judgement scenes that became so familiar in the, Page 50. Platonized Christianity (or was it Christianized Platonism?) of the Middle Ages.”
“Here!” Adam breaks in energetically. “N.T. describes Christianity’s belief in the punishment of, sinful souls in Hell, as originating in the philosophies of Plato. These pagan ideas had already been embraced and taught by Christianity in the middle Ages, becoming Platonized Christianity, beliefs that are still prevalent and taught as fact today.”
Isaac nods and then continues to read.
“Three judges are appointed, one each from Europe and Asia and one (Minos, conveniently from Crete, poised as it were between the two continents) as the judge of appeal. At last, after all the botched earthly attempts at justice, truth will win out and judgement will be just; the virtuous will find themselves sent to the Islands of the Blessed, and the wicked will be put in Tartarus.” From here it is a short step to the view of Cicero and others, that virtuous souls go to join the stars. Plato needs to be careful here, since he wants simultaneously to deny the normal gloomy view of the entire underworld (hence the censorship mentioned earlier) and to develop a strong theology of post-mortem punishment for the wicked. His way round this dilemma, clearly, is to emphasize the blessings that await the virtuous - not just the philosophers, but those who exhibit courage in battle and sundry other civic virtues. And the central point is important: judgement, even when negative, is emphatically a go
od thing, because it brings truth and justice to bear at last on the world of humans.”
Isaac finished the section then adds. “Yes this belief of a soul being rewarded for their actions after death appears to have been taught by Plato, but that might just mean that he took the idea from the Old Testament.”
“That's a stretch, but let’s keep reading about the Greek philosophers, then we’ll see what N.T. tells us about the Jewish concept of death,” Adam suggests.
“OK. Your next note is for page 52.” Isaac finds the page and a logical place to start reading.
“Plato did not sweep the board of subsequent opinion at either a popular or an intellectual level. Socrates’ own followers were clearly unable to sustain the master’s cheerfulness about his departure into the next world; if even they, with his own example, teaching and specific exhortation, could not refrain from inconsolable grief, it was perhaps unwise to suppose that anyone else would manage it either. In any case, other conflicting ideas were on offer as well. We glanced at Democritus and Epicureanism earlier; Stoic philosophers continued to debate such matters. Plato’s ideas on the soul (and much else besides) were, in addition, severely modified by his equally influential pupil Aristotle. He took the view that the soul was the substance, or the species-form, of the living thing; this represents a turning away from, Page 53, the lively Platonic view of the soul as a more or less independent, and superior, entity to the body. Aristotle did allow, however, that ‘the highest aspect of reason might be immortal and divine’. These exceptions do not, however, damage the general rule, followed with innumerable variations over the succeeding centuries: in Greek philosophy, care for and cure of the soul became a central preoccupation. And - this is, after all, the point for our present enquiry - neither in Plato nor in the major alternatives just mentioned do we find any suggestion that resurrection, the return to bodily life of the dead person, was either desirable or possible.”
Adam voices his interpretation. “Ya, this section show that the Pagans had many different ideas about the soul, but none of them believed that it was possible to come back with any kind of a physical body. Only the Christians believed in a bodily resurrection after death and only because they had seen it happen to Jesus,” Adam contends. “The first Christian converts did not believe they would be in a disembodied state after death. They believed they would be following the example of their Savior Jesus and be bodily resurrected after sleeping in their graves.”
“Let me finish these points first, then we can talk,” Isaac complains. “The next point that your notes talk about, picks up on page 54. A quarter ways down the page and it’s underlined.
The similar testimony of Seneca, from a different social and cultural background, is itself evidence that such views were not confined to one cultural stream but made their way widely in the greco-roman world. For Seneca, the immortal human soul has come from beyond this world - from among the stars, in fact - and will make its way back there. Though one might hold that it simply disappeared, it is more likely that it will go to be with the gods. Death is either the end of everything, in which case there is nothing to be alarmed about, or it is a process of change, in which case, since the change is bound to be for the better, one should be glad. The soul, in fact, is at present kept as a prisoner within the body, which is both a weight and a penance to it. One should not, then, fear death; it is the birth day of one’s eternity.' As long as one ceases to hope, one may also cease to fear.” Once again, though the thought has developed somewhat, we are still clearly within the broad stream of Platonism, carrying Cicero and others along with it. And if death is to be welcomed, it follows that an early death is a good thing, despite popular opinion. ‘Those whom the gods love die young’; few who quoted this at the death of Princess Diana will have realized that it goes back to the forth-century BC poet Menander, with echoes in other ancient plays.
I wondered where that saying came from. Just like the Billy Joel song, 'Only The Good Die Young',” Isaac states. “I knew it wasn't from the Bible, but I had no idea it was so old. I thought it might have been from Shakespeare or something.”
“No, it originates from a Pagan belief,” Adam states. “Just like the belief of the immortal soul, or spirit, being an innate part of man.”
Chapter 11
Old Testament Speaks
The Eden Conspiracy Page 10
