MARY ANN BUCKLE. I live at Holly-bush-gardens, Bethnal-green-road — I remember going with Emm on a Monday down to Stratford — I had been at the workhouse that day with Mrs. Emm — Mrs. Emm and I went first — Mr. Rowland came while we were there — I do not know exactly what day of the month it was; it was the 13th August I suppose; the day it was expected that the old lady was murdered — it was, as near as I can say, about half-past 6 o’clock that day, that I saw Rowland — Walter Emm was waiting outside the Union when we came out — I saw him there — I afterwards went down in a cart to Stratford with Emm and his wife — Rumble drove us — when we got back to Mr. English’s it was nearly half-past 11 — he lives in Park-street, Bethnal-green — Emm was with us all that time — we stopped at Mr. English’s about five minutes.
Cross-examined. Q. When were you first asked, and by whom, about this evening that you went to Stratford with Emm? A. At Arbour-square; last Tuesday, week I think — I had not been asked before — I recollected going down to Stratford on that particular day, because they said it was 13th August that the old lady was murdered — I did not hear, I think, before the Sunday that the old lady was murdered — I heard that Emm was taken in custody and charged with the murder — I knew that he was out with us that evening — I did not tell anybody so, his wife was with us at the same time — I did not hear of his being taken till the Monday morning as he was taken on the Sunday — I then went to Mrs. Emm and she was gone out — I saw her on the Monday night — I went to her house and saw him — I believe I spoke first — I can hardly recollect the words I said to him — I said. “Mr. Emm, I heard you were taken up for Mrs. Emsley” — he said, “Yes;” he was out on bail — he said, “Do you remember Monday, 13th August, I was with you at Stratford?” — I did not say anything about it — I have been at Stratford since, but never before — I went on the Tuesday after this, along with Mrs. Emm — Mr. Rowland was not with me either time — he was not with me on the Monday, only when he was in with us at the workhouse — I, Mr. and Mrs. Emm, and Mr. Rumble went to Stratford — on the Tuesday I, and Mr. and Mrs. Emm, and Mr. Rowland went, not Mr. Rumble; I think it was Mr. Rowland — I am quite sure it was Rowland — we walked down there on the Tuesday; we did not go in any vehicle.
COURT. Q. Who was with you on Monday? A. Mr. and Mrs. Emm, myself and Mr. Rumble — we started to go down there at ten minutes past 9 when we were at the end of White-horse-lane, when we got to the toll, and it was about half-past 11 when we were back in at Mr. English’s — we all came back together, and Mr. and Mrs. Emm and his eldest daughter went with me to my place, and Mr. Rumble went home.
MR. CLARK. Q. Had you gone down to see about a house? A. Yes, to collect some rents; and we went to see a house that was there to let — there were two at the time, and the lady shewed us one house, and we said we did not like the house; we thought the other one was the best — I walked down on the Tuesday to see the house again, and paid a deposit on it on the Monday night.
THOMAS RUMBLE. I live at Digby-street, Grove-lane, Bethnal-green, and a carman — I know Emm well — I keep my horse in his field — I remember Monday night, 13th August — I went out with him that night — the little boy came round to me first — I did not go round to his place; the little boy came round to me and said he could not catch the pony, and his father could not, and his father came round — I sent my little boy round with the father and they caught the pony — it was about 8 o’clock when he came round to me — about 9 o’clock, when the pony was caught, it was put in the cart opposite my place, and Mr. and Mrs. Emm, and Mrs. Buckle, and I got into the cart — I drove them from there to Bromley — Mr. and Mrs. Emm got out of the cart at Bromley, and Mrs. Buckle and I sat in the cart — after that we went on to Stratford — we got back, not to Mr. Emm’s house, but to the beershop just at the top of the street, about half-past 11.
Cross-examined. Q. Do you remember Emm being taken up by the police? A. Yes, on the Sunday — I heard of it on the Sunday, because I was in the field in the afternoon — I can’t say when my attention was first called to the day upon which I drove him and his wife down to Stratford — it was on the day when Mr. Emm was taken in the field; that is all I know; I don’t know the day — I speak with certainty as to the day I went down to Stratford; it was on the 13th.
COURT. Q. How do you know that; have you any book in which you entered any charge against him, or anything of that sort? A. No; I am confident it was Monday.
MR. BEST. Q. Might it have been the Monday before? A. No, it was Monday the 13th — I know it by the toll-ticket — I took the toll- ticket, and I believe I passed it into Mr. Emm’s hands — I cannot say that I have sees it since — I saw the date on the toll-ticket — I know that was the very day I went through the gate — I always get a ticket when I go through the gate — I have been through a good many times before and since; I always had tickets — I have got one in my pocket now but I do not know the date of it — I can’t say who first spoke to me about that particular day after Emm was taken in custody — Mr. Tanner and Thomas came to let me know about it — I can’t say the day of the month they came to me; it was a very few days after Emm was taken; I can’t say what day — they both came together — I can’t say which spoke to me first — I can’t say whether they did or not speak to me before I said anything to them — I believe they said to me,”Do you remember the day you drove Emm down to Stratford?” — they said, “Do you remember driving Emm down on Monday, 13th August last?” — it was not from what they said that I remembered the day; because the toll-ticket, as I told you before, told me the day of the month; I remember the night very well — when the man gave the toll-ticket to me I passed it to Emm, and I saw the number of it then — that was the first time I saw the date, and I did not take any notice of it till Tanner and Thomas came to me — they did not put it to me as Monday, August 13th; I can’t say whether I or they said it.
MR. SERJEANT PARRY. Q. Have you any other reason for remembering the night than what you have told us? A. No — I first heard of the murder on the Friday, I believe — I believe it was supposed to have been committed on Monday, the 13th — I have driven Mrs. Buckle down to Stratford before — I drove her in company with Mr. and Mrs. Emm on that night, 13th August — I never drove her down to Stratford before that, to my knowledge — that was the first night I ever drove her down.
ANN EMM. I am the wife of Walter Thomas Emm — I remember my husband being taken into custody on the Sunday — he got up on the morning of the Saturday before that, about half-past 9 — he was very ill on Friday — I am quite sure he did not get up till half-past 9 — he only went out of the cottage to the water-closet and in again, and I was at the door when he went outside — that was on the Saturday morning — my husband could not have gone out to the shed by the side of our house, or have gone to the ruin, between 8 and 9 o’clock, without my knowing it, and I am sure he did not — I remember Monday, 13th August — I remember going to Stratford — I was at my father’s, at the Union, before I went down to Stratford — Mrs. Buckle went with me — Mr. Rowland and my husbaud came shortly afterwards — it was pretty well 7 o’clock in the afternoon when they came to me — Mr. Rumble went down to Stratford — from 7 o’clock that afternoon till I returned from Stratford, I was with my husband — I went to Stratford about 9 at night — Mrs. Buckle, Mr. Rumble, and my husband went with me — Rowland did not go with us — he left us when we got into the cart — I am quite sure this was Monday, 13th August
Cross-Examined. Q. When did you first remember that was the day you went to Stratford? A. I knew it was on the 13th we went to Stratford, because of going to get some rent for the old lady — I used to go to Bromley getting rents of little houses there, and then accompany my husband to Stratford — I was in the habit of going on other days — I remember this particular Monday the 13th, because it was the day I went to see my father before I went — I went to see him several times, but I did not go to Stratford the same day, afterwards: that I am sure of
— it was the Monday, as we found Mrs. Emsley was dead on the following Friday — it was before, not after my husband was taken in custody, that it came to my recollection; of course I was aware it was the 13th that I went — I know we all four went together to Stratford on that day — I should have known it was that particular Monday, if my husband had not been apprehended, because we rode there in a cart on the Monday — I have thought of it a good many times since — my husband is naturally a very ailing man; he often gets up late — he was very seldom out of the place unless I knew where he was going, or what for — I usually get up first — I am generally up as soon as he is — I generally know where he goes to when he goes out of the house; he tells me if he is going anywhere particular — he never goes away without saying where he is going.
SUSANNAH EMM. I am the daughter of Walter Emm — I live with him in the cottage in the brick-field — I remember the Monday morning on which the police came to our house, and took my father into custody — my father had been in a very bad state of health the day before — he had his breakfast in bed — I give it to him at about a quarter to 9 — he was then in bed — I assist him in his business — I work by the window against the shed — there are five windows to the cottage, two down stairs and three up — if a person goes from the door to the shed, they must pass the window where I was sitting at work — after I gave my father his breakfast at a quarter to 9, I was sitting at work at the window all the day, barring when I got up to my meals — my father did not go by the window to that shed while I was at work there — he could not have gone by without my seeing him — I could also see from the window the ruined cottage in the field — nobody went there from our cottage that morning — I was at work in the cottage all the day, except the time I was at my meals — I know the prisoner by sight — he has had meals at our house sometimes — in the course of that Saturday morning on which my father was in bed I saw Mullins in the brick-field — that was about half-past 2 in the afternoon — he was at the back of the school wall, right straight across the field from the window — the school is right at the opposite end of the field to our cottage — I see the cottage here (referring to the plan) — it was somewhere about here that I saw the prisoner at half-past 2 — this is the window where I was sitting — when I saw the prisoner in the brick-field about half-past 2, he was walking along, looking down on the ground as if he was looking for something.
Cross-examined. Q. How far off was he? A. He was three parts across the field — shoemaking is the work I follow at this window — I can look out of the window and make shoes as well; because I am not looking at the shoes perhaps every minute in the day — I look out of the window very often — I always look about the field — anybody could go to the shed without my seeing them, but not to the ruin — I do not always have my eyes fixed on the shed; on the ruin I do, but not on the shed — I look at the ruin always, because it is right level with the window — I went to work that morning before I gave my father his breakfast; and I sat at the window at work all day afterwards — I was there the day before, Friday, and the day before that — I worked all the week — I always work at the window.
MR. SERJEANT PARRY. Q. The shed where you heard of the parcel being found, is on the left of your window? A. Yes; therefore a person might come this way to it without my seeing them — if a person went from the door of our cottage they could not go to the shed without my seeing them.
WALTER THOMAS EMM, JUN. I remember my father being taken in custody — I am ten years old — my father was taken in custody on the Sunday — I know the prisoner Mullins — I had seen him before that Sunday — I saw him in the field on Friday, lying down with a handkerchief up to his eyes — he was lying at the back of the school wall — I saw him there about half an hour — I went away then to mind my pigs — I saw him again on Saturday, he came up towards some mound where they were putting down some drain pipes, and walked back again — it was a heap of sand in the middle of the field — he stayed there about half an hour — I did not see him there again.
Cross-examined. Q. Had you seen him there any days before? A. Yes; I saw him one or two weeks — he was getting herbs; picking up something off the ground — there were not persons putting drains down when he went up to this place by the sand; they were making a road there, there were eight men there — he did not go close to them, because there was a mound they were knocking down — he did not go and look at them; he walked up towards the mound, and then he walked back again — I do not know whether they could see him — he knew me.
MR. SERJEANT PARRY. Q. What were you doing there? A. I was minding my father’s pigs.
JOHN RAYMOND. I am a tailor by business, and reside at 12, Oxfordsquare — I remember the night of 13th August — I know the Grove-road — I did not know and never saw Mrs. Emeley — at the corner of Grove-road there is a public-house, of the sign of the Earl of Aberdeen — there is a urinal by the side of it; about twelve feet from it — I remember being there on the evening of 13th August, about ten minutes to 8 o’olock — there was a man there and I waited — I was facing the urinal so as to see any one that came out — I saw the man that came out; it was the prisoner — he went round the corner of the Aberdeen; going round the corner, and turning to the right, would lead to the house No. 9, on the right hand side of the way.
COURT. Q. How far would the place be from the house No. 9? A. About four hundred and twenty yards as near as possible.
MR. SERJEANT PARRY. Q. Have you measured it? A. No; it is merely guess.
Cross-examined. Q. You are a tailor? A. Yes; a journeyman tailor; not a jobbing tailor — I am a coat maker — I work for Mr. James Cook, of 63, Shorediteh — he was the last pereon — in 1847, I worked for Stevens and Clark — I have not been working for anybody since — I have been working nine years for the person who employed me — I work for him now; I am quite sure — I am not obliged to send for my work at all — I go to and for the premises for my work — I went to Scotland-yard on the Friday previous to the last examination of the prisouer — the prisoner bad been examained twice, I believe, previously to my going to Scotland-yard — I had beard of it — I read the newspapers; I had not read the account of the examination in the newspapers, never but once.
COURT. Q. Did you know the prison by sight? A. I never saw him in my life — I did not know him by name — I identified him simply by seeing the account of the examination in the papers, and I was satisfied that the man I saw come out of the urinal was the man charged with the murder — that was the way in which I imagined the case — having read the papers and seen that he was termed a plasterer by trade, and seeing the person come out of the urinal I saw that that man was a plasterer — I first saw him so as to identify him on 2d October, at the police-court in Arbour-square.
MR. BEST. Q. You say you saw something in the papers about his being a plasterer, did you also see a description of what he was like? A. No, I did not, I am quite sure — I observed that he was a plasterer by the coat he wore and the billy-cocked hat — he looked like a man engaged in that capacity returning home from his work at that hour of the nigh — I only caught a casual glance of him as he came out of the urinal — I observed his face — I did not take the trouble to count how many persons there ware in the room with the prisoner when I saw him at Arbour-square — he was among a great many more; these might have been twenty — he was not in the court, bat in a room at the door of the court — I was taken there to see if I could point out the man I saw in the urinal — he had not then got on a plasterer’s coat and a billy-cocked hat — I swore to him by his feature — I did see his features on the night in question, not longer perhaps than for two or three minutes — the man gave me every opportunity of looking at his countenance from what I was told and what I saw in the papers, I was satisfied that the man I had seen in the retiring-place was the man who was charged with the murder — I do not always notice the persons I see, but I was standing in this position (folding his arms) waiting to go in, and the man as he cam
e out looked straight at me, up and down — it was not a casual glance that I had, the man gave me every opportunity of looking at his features, he seemed to be struck with my appearance — he stood and looked at me — I did not describe the appearance of the man before I went to the polioce court, not to a single person.
Delphi Complete Works of Sir Arthur Conan Doyle (Illustrated) Page 1100
