was hereafter examined and testified as hereinafter set forth.
A P P E A R A N C E S
LAW OFFICES OF CHRISTOPHER B. DOLAN, 655
Montgomery Street, 16th Floor, San Francisco, CA 94111,
represented by CHRISTOPHER DOLAN, Attorney at Law,
appeared as counsel on behalf of Plaintiff.
BURESH, KAPLAN, JANG, FELLER & AUSTIN, 2298
Durant Avenue, Berkeley, CA 94704, represented by SCOTT
BURESH, Attorney at Law, appeared as counsel on behalf of
Defendant.
RAMSEY & DURRELL, 755 Sansome Street, Suite 350,
San Francisco, CA 94111, represented by JUSTINE DURRELL,
Attorney at Law, appeared as counsel on behalf of Defendant.
ALSO PRESENT: Scott Bonagofsky
EXAMINATION BY CHRISTOPHER DOLAN:
MR. DOLAN: Would you please state your full name for the record?
ELISABETH WATERS: Elisabeth Waters.
MR. DOLAN: Do you have a middle name?
ELISABETH WATERS: No.
MR. DOLAN: Have you ever been known by any other names?
ELISABETH WATERS: Yes.
MR. DOLAN: Please tell me those other names.
ELISABETH WATERS: My parents christened me Nancy Elisabeth Waters.
MR. DOLAN: Other than being christened Nancy Elisabeth Waters and the current name of Elisabeth Waters that you use, have you used any other names?
ELISABETH WATERS: No.
MR. DOLAN: Do you have a handle, as we have come to know it, I don’t know what the proper name is, but a name within the circles that either the Society for Creative Anachronism or any other science fiction circles that would give you a name other than Elisabeth Waters that you’re recognized by?
ELISABETH WATERS: No.
MR. DOLAN: No?
ELISABETH WATERS: No.
MR. DOLAN: Have you ever had your deposition taken before?
ELISABETH WATERS: Yes.
MR. DOLAN: Can you tell me when?
ELISABETH WATERS: I believe it was in 1993.
MR. DOLAN: Was that in relationship to a property dispute between Marion Zimmer Bradley and Patrick Breen?
ELISABETH WATERS: Yes, it was.
MR. DOLAN: Do you have a copy of that deposition still in your possession at your home?
ELISABETH WATERS: I do not believe so, no.
MR. DOLAN: Have you ever been deposed on any occasions other than that one?
ELISABETH WATERS: No.
MR. DOLAN: I am going to go over with you the rules of a deposition just so that we are clear on them even though you may have had the opportunity to speak to one or more of your attorneys on this matter, okay?
ELISABETH WATERS: Okay.
MR. DOLAN: Before I do that, do you have any legal training whatsoever of an official nature; i.e., have you ever attended any classes in any law schools?
ELISABETH WATERS: No.
MR. DOLAN: A deposition is a question-and-answer period, and although it’s being conducted in a somewhat informal atmosphere here in my office, it is the same as if it were being conducted in front of judge and jury in a court of law, and it carries the same weight as trial court testimony; do you understand that?
ELISABETH WATERS: Yes.
MR. DOLAN: You have sworn to tell the truth under the penalty of perjury today, and I just want to make sure that you understand that the penalty of perjury in California includes both fines and incarceration if you were found to be untruthful or dishonest during this deposition; do you understand that?
ELISABETH WATERS: Yes.
MR. DOLAN: Everything that is said in this room will be recorded into a booklet. The court reporter, at my left, is typing everything now, and it will be transcribed into a booklet of questions and answers that you will have an opportunity to review at some point in the future. Because everything is transcribed, everything that is said in this room needs to be done audibly, and everything said in this room will be recorded in that booklet; do you understand that?
ELISABETH WATERS: Yes.
MR. DOLAN: Therefore, I would ask that you please give me audible English language answers to my questions. Yes, no, or any other string of words you may wish to put together. If you wish to have a private conversation with anybody, do not do it in this room because it will not be considered private if it is done in my presence or in front of this court reporter. There is a room available for you and your counsel if at any time you need to talk to them; do you understand that?
ELISABETH WATERS: Yes.
MR. DOLAN: One thing that we’re doing very well, and I thank you for, is that we need to wait, one before the other in terms of speaking. So if you would kindly wait until I finish my questions before you begin your answers, I will likewise try to do the same. Your attorney may have advised you that it’s often good to pause momentarily so if there’s another attorney who wishes to make an objection, they may do so; do you understand that?
ELISABETH WATERS: Yes.
MR. DOLAN: I do not wish you to guess or speculate as to anything in this deposition. I only want your best testimony or your best recollection; however, I am entitled to estimates or approximations and any basis of information which you may have which is not a guess; do you understand that?
ELISABETH WATERS: Yes.
MR. DOLAN: I’ll give you an example of the difference between a guess and an estimate. I may be able to ask you to estimate the length of the table in this particular room, and you might be able to do that based upon your personal observation and your experience. If I were to ask you the length of the dining room table in my home, you would be unable to do that because you have never been there, so do you understand the difference?
ELISABETH WATERS: Yes, I do.
MR. DOLAN: If you do not understand a question, I’ll ask that you please ask me to rephrase the question, and I’ll somehow help you to understand the question. Otherwise, if I get an answer to a question, I will assume that you have understood the question as it was asked to you; do you understand that?
ELISABETH WATERS: Yes.
MR. DOLAN: If at any time today you need to take a break for any reason, to use the facilities, to get a beverage or to speak with your attorneys, you are free to do so. However, I must ask that you please do not interrupt a question pending to break to talk to your attorneys or to do something. I would request that I please get an answer before we take that break. I cannot force you to do so; however, I need to let you know that if you do break during a question and answer pending, I may draw an inference as to what happened in that time period between the question and the answer and present that to some jury at trial; do you understand that?
ELISABETH WATERS: Yes.
MR. DOLAN: You will have an opportunity to review your deposition and to make any changes that you think are necessary or appropriate once it’s completed. You will receive the booklet, and you can review it and make changes. However, I would ask for your best testimony today because if you make any changes to your deposition, I can comment, or any lawyer can comment on that at trial and ask the jury to draw an inference therefrom that there’s a reason why you have gone back and changed your testimony, and it may affect your credibility. So I would ask that you give me your best testimony today, and if you have any changes in the testimony that you think up later on during the day, please let us know while we’re still on the record because that will minimize any type of impact that a change in your testimony might have later on; do you understand that?
ELISABETH WATERS: Yes.
MR. DOLAN: Okay. Are you under the influence of any medications today which would impair your ability to recall events as they occurred in 1979 through to the present day?
ELISABETH WATERS: No.
MR. DOLAN: Are you suffering from any organic or physical defects of your brain or body which would impede your ability to remember events that occurred in the time period 1979 through the present day?
ELISABETH WATERS: No.
MR. DOLAN: Do you know of any reason why your deposition cannot go forward today?
ELISABETH WATERS: No.
MR. DOLAN: Are you suffering from any serious emotional difficulties, related to anything at this point, which would impede your ability to give your best testimony today?
ELISABETH WATERS: No.
MR. DOLAN: Please tell me where you were born.
ELISABETH WATERS: Providence, Rhode Island.
MR. DOLAN: How long did you live there?
ELISABETH WATERS: About a year and a half, I believe.
MR. DOLAN: How many children in your family?
ELISABETH WATERS: Three.
MR. DOLAN: Where do you fall in that framework?
ELISABETH WATERS: I’m the eldest.
MR. DOLAN: What were the names of your brothers and sisters?
ELISABETH WATERS: My sisters are Ellen and Julie.
MR. DOLAN: What are their last names please?
ELISABETH WATERS: Ellen is still Ellen Waters, and Julie is Mrs.
Larry Robinson.
MR. DOLAN: Where do they live currently?
ELISABETH WATERS: Ellen lives is New Canaan–
MR. DOLAN: Connecticut?
ELISABETH WATERS: Yes.
MR. DOLAN: It is a small world.
ELISABETH WATERS: Yes, I know.
MR. DOLAN: And?
ELISABETH WATERS: And Julie lives in Raleigh, North Carolina.
MR. DOLAN: Where in New Canaan does Ellen live?
ELISABETH WATERS: Frogtown Road.
MS. DURRELL: Excuse me just a minute. Elisabeth, can you speak up a little bit because I’m really having a hard time hearing you. Thanks.
MR. DOLAN: And what does Ellen do in New Canaan?
ELISABETH WATERS: She’s a teacher at King-Low-Heywood-Thomas School.
MR. DOLAN: You probably know this by now seeing how thorough you were on some of the things I saw in your documents on astrology related to other lawyers and things. I’m from New Canaan, Connecticut and lived my whole life there, and I’m actually somewhat of an oddity that I’m the fourth generation of five who lived there. We were poor Irish potato farmers that came over, and I’m intimately familiar with the Frogtown Road. What is the address of Julie in Raleigh, North Carolina, please?
ELISABETH WATERS: I don’t remember the exact street address.
MR. DOLAN: Do you have the name of the street?
ELISABETH WATERS: I think it’s Van Dyke Avenue, but I’m not positive.
MR. DOLAN: Where did you move after Providence, Rhode Island?
ELISABETH WATERS: I don’t remember. I was a baby. I believe it was Staten Island.
MR. DOLAN: And how long were you there?
ELISABETH WATERS: I think about maybe six months.
MR. DOLAN: Where did your family move to next?
ELISABETH WATERS: 54 Halsey Drive, Old Greenwich, Connecticut.
MR. DOLAN: And how long did your family live there?
ELISABETH WATERS: Until the fall of 1968.
MR. DOLAN: And where did they move after that?
ELISABETH WATERS: 379 Cascade Road, Stamford, Connecticut.
MR. DOLAN: North Stamford, Connecticut?
ELISABETH WATERS: Yes, right along the line.
MR. DOLAN: Between Ponus Ridge, going over the High Ridge Road?
ELISABETH WATERS: Uh-hum.
MR. DOLAN: How long did you live there?
ELISABETH WATERS: They’re still living there.
MR. DOLAN: Okay. How long did you live there?
ELISABETH WATERS: Well, first I was in boarding school for three years. Then I was in college for four. Then I went back and lived with them—let’s see, I went to Katie Gibbs in Norwalk the summer after I graduated from college, which would have been the summer of ’75, and then I went to graduate school at the University of New Haven, so I lived with them during that, so I lived with them until August 24th, 1979, when I moved to Berkeley.
MR. DOLAN: Okay. Did you receive any degree from graduate school at the University of New Haven?
ELISABETH WATERS: Yes.
MR. DOLAN: And what was that in, please?
ELISABETH WATERS: Computers and information science.
MR. DOLAN: Was that a Masters or Bachelors?
ELISABETH WATERS: Master of Science.
MR. DOLAN: My parents met at Katie Gibbs. My father was a recently graduated attorney and was taking typing, and my mother was also, and they met in the typing class at Katie Gibbs?
ELISABETH WATERS: New York or Norwalk?
MR. DOLAN: Norwalk, it may have been New York. Who knows. Okay. What boarding school did you go to?
ELISABETH WATERS: St. Anne’s.
MR. DOLAN: Where is that located?
ELISABETH WATERS: Charlottesville, Virginia.
MR. DOLAN: What college?
ELISABETH WATERS: Randolph Macon College.
MR. DOLAN: That’s in Virginia, isn’t it?
ELISABETH WATERS: Yes.
MR. DOLAN: Was it still a women’s college then?
ELISABETH WATERS: You’re confusing the two.
MR. DOLAN: Okay.
ELISABETH WATERS: Randolph Macon Women’s College is in Lynchburg. The one I attended is Randolph Macon College, which is in Ashland.
MR. DOLAN: In 1979 you moved to Berkeley; is that correct?
ELISABETH WATERS: Actually, Oakland.
MR. DOLAN: Where was your first residence in Oakland, please?
ELISABETH WATERS: 6617 Telegraph Avenue, Apartment 3.
MR. DOLAN: And who lived there with you, please?
ELISABETH WATERS: Marion moved into my spare room when she came back from England.
MR. DOLAN: Anyone else ever live there with you?
ELISABETH WATERS: No.
MR. DOLAN: How long did you live at 6617 Telegraph Avenue?
ELISABETH WATERS: About two years.
MR. DOLAN: Did either of Marion’s children ever stay with you at that address?
ELISABETH WATERS: I believe Moira did once or twice when Marion was away at convention.
MR. DOLAN: When Marion was actually in residence at 6617 Telegraph Avenue, Apartment No. 3, did either Patrick or Moira Breen ever stay in the apartment with you?
ELISABETH WATERS: No.
MR. DOLAN: Who was taking care of the children when you were living at 6617 Telegraph Avenue, if you know?
ELISABETH WATERS: In the daytime Marion and I would go over to the house. It’s a few blocks away from the house on Prince Street, and Marion was the daytime parent, and then at night Walter was there with the children because Walter was nocturnal. He would sit up all night writing.
MR. DOLAN: So this would be roughly the ’79 to ’81 time period?
ELISABETH WATERS: Yes.
MR. DOLAN: Did you have any permanent house guests at the 6617 Telegraph Avenue, Apartment 3 address? And what I mean by “permanent” is anyone who stayed there for more than three nights during that time period.
ELISABETH WATERS: No.
MR. DOLAN: Did you have any frequent guests? And what I mean by “frequent” is guests who came over on a regular basis, i.e., like once a week.
ELISABETH WATERS: No, it was a two-bedroom apartment. I had one bedroom. Marion had the other.
MR. BURESH: Your “no” answer was sufficient. You don’t have to explain your answer.
MR. DOLAN: Was there an office in that apartment?
ELISABETH WATERS: No.
MR. DOLAN: Did you and Marion Zimmer Bradley ever share a bedroom in that apartment?
ELISABETH WATERS: No.
(I saw them in bed together in that apartment and at the Prince Street house, and so did my friend Jean.)
MR. DOLAN: Did you and Marion Zimmer Bradley ever share the same bed in that apartment?
MR. BURESH: I’m going to object to the question, and all questions along this line, as an invasion of the witness’s privacy and also because it’s not reasonably calculated to lead to the dis
covery of admissible evidence. Subject to that objection, I am going to allow the witness to answer to the extent that she feels comfortable, and so I’m going to allow the witness to go ahead to that extent.
MR. DOLAN: I’m not asking if you ever had sexual relations with her. I’m just asking whether you ever shared the same bed.
MR. BURESH: Well, that’s a matter of characterization.
MZB: No, I don’t think we did.
MR. DOLAN: Have you ever shared the same bed with Marion Zimmer Bradley?
MR. BURESH: Can we have a stipulation that I have continuing objection to this line of questions subject to what I just got through saying.
MR. DOLAN: Certainly. I’m not necessarily agreeing to your objection, but I understand you don’t have to say it every time.
MR. BURESH: Thank you. Give me the question back, please.
MR. DOLAN: Did you and Marion Zimmer Bradley ever share the same bed?
MR. BURESH: I’ll also object on the basis that it’s vague and ambiguous.
MS. DURRELL: Overbroad.
MZB: I think we may have some times. It was a long time ago, and I don’t remember very well.
MR. DOLAN: Have you and Marion Zimmer Bradley ever been romantically involved?
ELISABETH WATERS: Yes.
MR. DOLAN: From what time period?
ELISABETH WATERS: 1978 to about 1985, I think.
MR. DOLAN: Where did you live after living at the Telegraph Avenue address, please?
ELISABETH WATERS: 2221 Prince Street.
MR. DOLAN: Is that where you currently reside?
ELISABETH WATERS: Yes.
MR. DOLAN: Do you recall when you moved into 2221 PrinceStreet?
ELISABETH WATERS: It was when Moira was 15, so that would have made it 1981.
MR. DOLAN: When you moved into Prince Street in 1981—strike that. Have you ever lived at any other addresses on Prince Street?
ELISABETH WATERS: No.
MR. DOLAN: So when I refer to Prince Street, you’ll know that I’m talking about 2221 Prince Street?
ELISABETH WATERS: Yes.
MR. DOLAN: When you moved into Prince Street, who was living in the dwelling at that time?
ELISABETH WATERS: Marion and I and Moira and Patrick.
MR. DOLAN: Do you know where Walter was living?
ELISABETH WATERS: Yes, he moved to our apartment.
MR. DOLAN: Have you ever lived in any addresses since—strike that. Have you ever lived in any addresses other than Prince Street since 1981?
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