MR. DOLAN: Why did you rent a property to a gentleman you knew had been accused of child molestation?
MR. BURESH: I will object to that question. Instruct the witness not to answer.
MR. DOLAN: On what basis?
MR. BURESH: It’s lacking foundation, assumes facts not in evidence and it’s argumentative.
MR. DOLAN: You have just told me I can’t ask her if she knew this man had been accused of child molestation prior to February 1986. You’re now telling me I can’t ask her why because I have already asked her and she’s answered?
MR. BURESH: You don’t need to pound the table, Chris.
MR. DOLAN: Well, I’m getting frustrated.
MR. BURESH: I know you are.
MR. DOLAN: And I have asked her, and you said it’s asked and answered that she knew that he was a child molester—had been accused of child molestation prior to this. Now I’m asking her, why did you rent property to him if you knew that he had been accused of child molestation?
MR. BURESH: Argumentative, instruct the witness not to answer.
MR. DOLAN: Prior to renting the property to Walter Breen, did you know that he had been accused of child molestation?
MR. BURESH: Don’t answer the question.
MR. DOLAN: Why did you rent this property to Walter Breen if you had knowledge that he had been accused of child molestation?
MR. BURESH: Objection, argumentative. Instruct the witness not to answer.
MR. DOLAN: Argumentative is not a reason to instruct not to answer, and we can break now, because I’m going to go find you the law, and I’ll show you the only reasons you’re allowed to instruct someone not to answer. Argumentative is not one of them. I just want to make sure it’s clear on the record that this is becoming obstructive. (Whereupon, a recess was taken.)
MR. DOLAN: Prior to renting the property to Walter Breen, did you and Marion Zimmer Bradley discuss
3 his fitness as a tenant?
ELISABETH WATERS: No.
MR. DOLAN: Prior to renting the property to Walter Breen, did you and Marion Zimmer Bradley in any way discuss any allegations of Walter being a child molester?
ELISABETH WATERS: No.
MR. DOLAN: At the time that you rented the property to Walter Breen, did you have any concerns about renting the property to a gentleman who was—who had been accused of child molestation?
MR. BURESH: Same objection, same instruction.
MR. DOLAN: What was the objection?
MR. BURESH: Same objection.
MR. DOLAN: I don’t know what it is though.
MR. BURESH: It’s the one I made to the same–
MR. DOLAN: Is it asked and answered? I never asked her if she had any concerns about renting to an alleged child molester.
MR. BURESH: Well, it’s the same question in a different form. You asked what her suspicions were, what her predilections were, and now you’re picking this date, which I understand is a significant date from your standpoint. It’s the same series of questions, and I think we are just beating a dead horse here because we are going in front of a judge, and the judge is going to decide this issue.
MR. DOLAN: Mark it, please. (Whereupon, the previous question was marked for the record.)
MR. DOLAN: Did you interview any other possible tenants for the goldfish bowl location that was ultimately rented to Walter Breen?
ELISABETH WATERS: No.
MR. DOLAN: Did you interview Walter Breen for the residence as a tenant?
ELISABETH WATERS: No.
MR. DOLAN: Did anyone object to Walter Breen being rented that premises prior to the time that Ken Smith was reported as being molested, and not making that pregnant with the fact that someone may have objected to it at that time?
ELISABETH WATERS: No.
MR. DOLAN: Did you ever hear any rumors of Walter Breen’s molesting of any children other than the ones that have been previously identified in this deposition today?
ELISABETH WATERS: No.
MR. DOLAN: Have you, since this all came out with Kenny Smith, been made aware of any other allegations of Walter’s molestation of children other than Ken Smith, the young boy down in L.A. Barry—I believe you referenced Sterling, and [Glenn Frendel]? MR. BURESH: Let me have the question again. (Whereupon, the record was read by the reporter.)
ELISABETH WATERS: Moira was instantly convinced that Walter had molested every child he had ever been near, so to that extent, yes, I have heard other allegations.
MR. DOLAN: Did any parents, prior to the molestation of Ken Smith, every tell you that they wouldn’t let their child stay over at the house unless you or Marion were there?
MR. BURESH: I’ve got to hear that one again. I’m sorry.
MR. DOLAN: Did any parents, prior to the molestation of Ken Smith, ever tell you that they did not want their child staying over at the house unless you and Marion were there?
MR. BURESH: This is calling for statements made by parents to you.
ELISABETH WATERS: Yes.
MS. DURRELL: And the time frame on this is confusing.
MR. DOLAN: Prior to the molestation of Ken Smith?
ELISABETH WATERS: It wasn’t me and Marion. It was me or Marion. Tracy said that she didn’t want the kids from Greyhaven staying over there unless Marion or I was there because she didn’t consider Walter grown up enough to take care of children on his own.
MR. DOLAN: Did she have a son, Tracy?
ELISABETH WATERS: No.
MR. DOLAN: Was Ian related to her in some way, Ian Studbaker?
ELISABETH WATERS: He’s her husband’s bastard.
MR. DOLAN: So it is her husband’s son?
ELISABETH WATERS: Yes.
MR. DOLAN: Did Tracy ever tell you that she didn’t want Ian—you or Marion as you put it—staying at the house until you or Marion were there?
ELISABETH WATERS: No, she wasn’t talking about Ian. She was talking about Fiona. She let me and my boyfriend Philip have a slumber party for Fiona and a few of her friends, but she wouldn’t have let Walter do it.
MR. DOLAN: Did any parent, prior to the molestation of Ken Smith, ever express any reservation about having their child at Prince Street for any reason that you’re aware of?
MS. DURRELL: Excuse me, Chris, you keep saying, “prior to the molestation.”
MR. DOLAN: Prior to the identification of—prior to the ’89?
ELISABETH WATERS: Okay.
MR. DOLAN: So prior to the date of ’89 that Ken Smith’s molestation was reported?
ELISABETH WATERS: No, Tracy was the only one.
MR. DOLAN: Did Tracy ever discuss with you any allegation of molestation of her son, Ian, or the bastard son of her husband, Ian?
ELISABETH WATERS: Call him her nephew. You see—let’s see. Tracy is married to Paul. Diana is married to Don. Don and Paul are foster brothers, and on Ian’s birth certificate it says he is Diana and Don’s. It’s just biologically he’s Paul’s, so nephew will do. What was the question?
MR. DOLAN: Did Tracy ever tell you that she had any concerns about Walter’s interaction with Ian?
ELISABETH WATERS: No, she did not.
MR. DOLAN: Did Diana ever talk to you about my concerns she had about Walter’s interaction with Ian?
ELISABETH WATERS: No.
MR. DOLAN: To this day are you aware of any allegations that Walter may have molested Ian?
ELISABETH WATERS: Moira said that Tracy said that she heard Ian say once, “Don’t touch me there, that tickles.”
MR. DOLAN: Do you know if Walter ever had any overnight guests who were underage children at the property you rented him?
ELISABETH WATERS: I believe that Mary Mason sent Ken to stay with him.
MR. DOLAN: Okay. Any others that you’re aware of?
ELISABETH WATERS: No.
MR. DOLAN: Are you aware of whether Walter was entertaining any young men under the age of 18 in the home that you rented to him other than Ken Smith from the time period 1985 through the report
of Ken Smith’s molestation in 1989?
ELISABETH WATERS: No.
MR. DOLAN: Did you ever find Walter Breen in a room alone with a young boy at Green Walls at the time between 1985 and 1989?
ELISABETH WATERS: No.
MR. DOLAN: Did you know that Ken Smith was staying alone with Walter Breen at Green Walls between 1985 and 1989?
ELISABETH WATERS: He wasn’t.
MR. DOLAN: Who was there?
ELISABETH WATERS: Marion and I lived at Green Walls.
MR. BURESH: You mean the goldfish bowl?
MR. DOLAN: I’m sorry. The goldfish bowl?
ELISABETH WATERS: Well, I don’t think he would have been alone. Moira and whatever boyfriend she was living with then would have been there.
MR. DOLAN: Were you aware at the time that Ken Smith was staying at the residence rented to Walter between 1985 and 1989, that Ken Smith was staying there?
ELISABETH WATERS: No.
MR. DOLAN: Did you ever see Ken Smith on the property at the goldfish bowl?
ELISABETH WATERS: No.
MR. DOLAN: Did you ever see Ken Smith on the property at Green Walls, which is the Prince Street address?
ELISABETH WATERS: To the best of my recollection, no.
MR. DOLAN: Do you know if Ken Smith and Walter ever used the hot tub at the Prince Street address?
ELISABETH WATERS: I do not remember their ever doing so, but it’s quite possible that they did.
MR. DOLAN: Let’s sort of switch gears here. When did you first meet Mary Mason?
ELISABETH WATERS: At the Worldcon in Boston in 1989.
MR. DOLAN: Is it your testimony that you never spoke with Mary Mason prior to Worldcon in Boston in 1989?
ELISABETH WATERS: I believe I phoned her in July to tell her the police wanted to talk to Kenny.
MR. DOLAN: Prior to the report of molestation of Ken Smith, did you ever talk to Mary Mason?
ELISABETH WATERS: No.
MR. DOLAN: Did you know who Mary Mason was prior to the report of the Ken Smith molestation in 1989?
ELISABETH WATERS: Not that I recall.
MR. DOLAN: Had you ever talked to Ken Smith at all prior to the molestation—the report of molestation in 1989?
ELISABETH WATERS: No.
MR. DOLAN: Had you ever seen Ken Smith at any science-fiction conventions prior to 1989 when his molestation was reported?
ELISABETH WATERS: No.
MR. DOLAN: Had Ken Smith ever assisted you in any of the MZB Enterprises prior to his report of molestation in 1989 that you’re aware of?
ELISABETH WATERS: No.
MR. DOLAN: Did you know if Ken Smith had ever occupied any of the hotel rooms which were rented by MZB Enterprises at any time prior to his molestation in 1989?
ELISABETH WATERS: MZB Enterprises didn’t rent hotel rooms.
MR. DOLAN: Okay.
MR. BURESH: Listen to the question.
MR. DOLAN: Okay, were there hotel rooms rented for the different conferences for the employees of Marion Zimmer Bradley or Marion Zimmer Bradley Enterprises, whatever they were?
MR. BURESH: By Marion Zimmer Bradley Enterprises?
MR. DOLAN: By Marion Zimmer Bradley or Marion Zimmer Bradley Enterprises?
ELISABETH WATERS: No.
MR. DOLAN: Did you pay for Walter’s hotel rooms at these conferences?
ELISABETH WATERS: No.
MR. DOLAN: Did you have an employment agreement with Walter?
ELISABETH WATERS: Yes.
MR. DOLAN: Let’s mark this as Plaintiff’s next in order. (Whereupon, Plaintiff’s Exhibit No. 5 was marked for identification.)
MR. DOLAN: It comes out of your Exhibit No. 23. It’s a two-page exhibit called, “Employment Agreement.”
MR. DOLAN: Do you know who drafted this employment agreement marked as Plaintiff’s Exhibit No. 5?
ELISABETH WATERS: I’m sorry, was that a question?
MR. DOLAN: Do you know who drafted this agreement that has been marked as Plaintiff’s Exhibit No. 5?
ELISABETH WATERS: I did. I copied it from his previous employment exhibit with First Coin Investors, pretty much.
MR. DOLAN: And do you see on the second page of that where it talks about expenses for travel?
ELISABETH WATERS: Yes.
MR. DOLAN: Did you reimburse Walter for expenses for travel that were involved with the MZB Enterprises?
ELISABETH WATERS: No, because those weren’t business travel. When we’re talking about travel here, we are talking about numismatic travel.
MR. DOLAN: So Walter’s attendance at coin shows—I mean, at science fiction fairs was not something that was part of his business?
ELISABETH WATERS: Correct.
MR. DOLAN: So is it your testimony that prior to 1989, the time in 1989 that he was reported for the molestation of Ken Smith, his job duties did not include attendance at science fiction or fantasy conventions?
ELISABETH WATERS: That is correct.
MR. DOLAN: Let’s mark this as Plaintiff’s next in order. (Whereupon, Plaintiff’s Exhibit No. 6 was marked for identification.)
MR. DOLAN: It has highlight markings on it. If you have–
MR. BURESH: A clean copy.
MR. DOLAN: Yeah.
MR. BURESH: Give me the number again.
MR. DOLAN: Exhibit 11.
MR. BURESH: What is it, a letter from Walter?
MR. DOLAN: To Walter. We’ll make a copy and give you one back.
MR. BURESH: I don’t think I have it in this one.
MR. DOLAN: 15 November ’89.
MR. BURESH: Is it after the employment agreement?
ELISABETH WATERS: Yes.
MR. DOLAN: Yes. And after the will. We’ll make a clean copy.
MR. DOLAN: I’m going to show you what’s been marked as Plaintiff’s 6 and ask you if you drafted that document?
ELISABETH WATERS: Yes.
MR. DOLAN: Did you send that document to Walter?
ELISABETH WATERS: Yes.
MR. DOLAN: If Walter’s duties did not include attendance at science fiction or fantasy conventions as part of his employment, why did you send him a letter in November of 1989 telling him that his duties no longer include traveling to science-fiction conventions?
MR. BURESH: Well, it doesn’t say that.
ELISABETH WATERS: It doesn’t say “no longer.” It says," do not include". It’s clarifying that point to make it absolutely clear.
MR. DOLAN: It says, “Therefore, effective immediately and until further notice, your job duties do not include attendance at any science fiction or fantasy convention.”
MR. BURESH: The question is argumentative and misstates the record.
MR. DOLAN: I haven’t asked a question yet.
MR. DOLAN: Why did you send this letter to Walter Breen telling him that effective immediately his job duties did not include traveling to science fiction and fantasy conventions if, indeed, his job duties never included those?
MR. BURESH: I’m going to object to the question. It assumes facts not in evidence and misstates the record. The duties as stated on the employment agreement, Exhibit 5 says, “Employee shall update the Darkover Concordance, work on the magazine as requested, and undertake other projects as assigned. These may include numismatic work, as long as such work does not involve numerical grading of coins.”
MR. DOLAN: What is the objection?
ELISABETH WATERS: Actually, his duties did not involve travel at all.
MR. DOLAN: Then what was the need for sending the letter in November of 1989 telling him that effective immediately, and until further notice, your job duties do not include attendance at any science fiction or fantasy conventions?
MR. BURESH: Objection, assumes that there was a need.
MR. DOLAN: You can answer.
MR. BURESH: If you want to explain to him why.
MR. DOLAN: Scott, please.
ELISABETH WATERS: Camille LeGrand suggested that we do this just to make the paper trail abso
lutely clean. To make it very clear that he was not attending conventions as our employee.
MR. DOLAN: Had Walter ever attended a convention as your employee?
ELISABETH WATERS: No.
MR. DOLAN: Had Walter ever facilitated the business of the MZB Enterprises at any time during the science-fiction conventions?
ELISABETH WATERS: You mean, like sat at a dealer’s table or something?
MR. DOLAN: Yes.
ELISABETH WATERS: Not to my knowledge.
MR. DOLAN: Had he ever helped move boxes of books or anything like that?
ELISABETH WATERS: No.
MR. DOLAN: Did Walter in any way during any of these science-fiction conventions represent MZB Enterprises?
ELISABETH WATERS: No.
MR. DOLAN: Do you know if during his discussion—did Walter ever appear on any panels?
MS. DURRELL: I’m going to object. That’s vague and ambiguous. I don’t understand that question.
MR. DOLAN: During the science fiction or fantasy conventions that Walter attended, do you know if he ever sat on any panels where he spoke to audiences?
ELISABETH WATERS: I don’t know.
MR. DOLAN: Did you ever?
ELISABETH WATERS: He may have. I don’t know.
MR. DOLAN: Did you ever listen to Walter talk to any audiences?
ELISABETH WATERS: No.
MR. DOLAN: Did Walter stay in the same room with the rest of the people who were employees of Marion Zimmer Bradley at these conventions?
MR. BURESH: Sleeping in the room?
MR. DOLAN: Same room—let me ask this question.
MR. DOLAN: Would the family often rent a suite of rooms when you went to these conventions?
ELISABETH WATERS: No, we all had individual rooms.
MR. DOLAN: Did Walter and Marion ever share a room at these conventions?
ELISABETH WATERS: Not as late as this. Probably they did when they were first married.
MR. DOLAN: Do you know from the time period 1985 to 1989 whether Walter and Marion ever shared a room at a science-fiction convention?
ELISABETH WATERS: I don’t know.
MR. DOLAN: Do you know if at any time during 1985 to 1989, Walter and Marion had continuous rooms, room that were connected in any way at the science fiction and fantasy convention?
ELISABETH WATERS: No, if they weren’t sharing a room, there is no reason they would have had adjoining rooms.
MR. DOLAN: The questions is, do you know?
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