MR. DOLAN: Did you ever ask Walter about it?
ELISABETH WATERS: No.
MR. DOLAN: Did you ever undertake any investigation to find out whether or not Walter was giving drugs to children after Moira had reported that to you sometime in her teens?
ELISABETH WATERS: No.
MR. DOLAN: Do you have any understanding—strike that. Did you learn that information from Moira that Walter was giving her drugs to put in the spaghetti sauce prior to renting him the premises in 1986?
ELISABETH WATERS: I think so.
MR. DOLAN: Did you ever learn any information about Walter Breen giving drugs to anyone other than Moira Breen?
ELISABETH WATERS: I believe that Patrick Breen used marijuana as a teenager, but I don’t know where he got it.
MR. DOLAN: Do you have any information as to whether or not Walter Breen ever smoked marijuana with Patrick Breen when Patrick Breen was under the age of 18?
ELISABETH WATERS: I never saw either of them smoke marijuana, but they smelled funny a lot.
MR. DOLAN: Do you have any information as to whether or not they ever smoked marijuana together, whether or not you actually saw them; you may have heard something or someone has told you?
ELISABETH WATERS: No.
MR. DOLAN: Did you ever smoke marijuana—well, I won’t ask that question. Did you ever see Walter Breen smoking marijuana in your presence?
ELISABETH WATERS: No.
MR. DOLAN: Did you have any information as to whether or not Walter Breen ever gave drugs to any of the friends of Moira and Patrick Breen?
ELISABETH WATERS: No.
MR. DOLAN: Have you ever been told that by anyone?
ELISABETH WATERS: No.
MR. DOLAN: Were you at all concerned about renting an apartment in 1986 to Walter Breen if you knew that he was using marijuana?
ELISABETH WATERS: No.
MR. DOLAN: Were you at all concerned about the rental of the apartment to Walter Breen if you knew that he was giving marijuana to his children prior to 1986?
ELISABETH WATERS: By 1986 his children were adults, so that was not a concern if, in fact, he was giving them marijuana.
MR. DOLAN: Okay. Was your and Marion’s departure from the Prince Street address connected in any way with the episode of finding young boys in Walter’s bed?
ELISABETH WATERS: What departure from the Prince Street address?
MR. DOLAN: I’m just going from what Moira told us. She indicated that you and Marion departed Prince Street after a young boy was found in Walter’s bed, and I’m wondering if you have any information about that allegation by Moira?
ELISABETH WATERS: If she’s talking about when she was complaining about Walter’s behavior with [other name] in 1981; that was when Walter left Prince Street, and Marion and I moved in.
MR. DOLAN: Okay. What behavior are we talking about relating to [other name] in 1981?
MR. BURESH: Well, what behavior is she talking about or are you talking about?
MR. DOLAN: She just mentioned, “behavior with [other name] in 1981.” What behavior are you referencing?
ELISABETH WATERS: Moira complained that her father was trying to steal her friends.
MR. DOLAN: Did Moira complain that her father was trying to seduce her friends?
ELISABETH WATERS: No.
MR. DOLAN: Did Moira complain that her father was trying to steal her friends in any way relate to anything of a sexual nature?
ELISABETH WATERS: No.
MR. DOLAN: Did Moira ever complain to you that she felt her father was trying to pick up her friends in a sexual manner?
ELISABETH WATERS: No.
MR. DOLAN: Did Moira ever complain to you that she thought her father and [other name] were engaged in sex together?
ELISABETH WATERS: No.
MR. DOLAN: Did anyone ever inform you that they believed that Walter and [other name] were engaged in sexual conduct?
ELISABETH WATERS: No.
MR. DOLAN: Did you ever talk to Walter about Moira’s belief that Walter was trying to steal her friends?
ELISABETH WATERS: No.
MR. DOLAN: Did you ever ask Moira what she meant by that?
ELISABETH WATERS: No.
MR. DOLAN: Did you undertake any investigation to find out what Moira meant when she said Walter was trying to steal her friends?
ELISABETH WATERS: No.
MR. DOLAN: Had you ever heard that Moira was of the belief that her mother attacked her with a pair of pliers?
ELISABETH WATERS: I think the story you’re talking about is that her mother tied her to a chair and threatened to pull out her teeth with pliers but did not actually touch her.
MR. DOLAN: Had you heard that story before?
ELISABETH WATERS: Yes, from Marion. She was deeply ashamed of it.
MR. DOLAN: When did you hear that story?
ELISABETH WATERS: I don’t remember. Sometime in the 1980’s.
MR. DOLAN: Was it prior to 1989?
ELISABETH WATERS: Probably.
MR. DOLAN: What did Marion tell you about that episode?
ELISABETH WATERS: That Moira kept biting Patrick, and she couldn’t think of any way to stop her, so she tied her to a chair and threatened to pull out all of her teeth with pliers, and Moira became hysterical, and Marion untied her and let her go, and Moira never bit her brother again.
MR. DOLAN: Did Marion ever tell you about any other story where she tied up her children?
ELISABETH WATERS: No.
MR. DOLAN: Did she tell you any other stories that were similar to the threat of physical abuse of the children if they did not behave?
ELISABETH WATERS: No.
MR. DOLAN: Did you ever see Marion attempt to take a knife to herself?
ELISABETH WATERS: No.
MR. DOLAN: Did you ever see Marion attempt to take a knife to anyone else?
ELISABETH WATERS: No.
MR. DOLAN: Did you ever see Marion claw at her own face?
ELISABETH WATERS: No.
MR. DOLAN: This is stuff that’s all in Walter’s letters to the police.
MR. BURESH: I know. I am just wondering what the relevance is.
MR. DOLAN: I’m just trying to find out about the stability of one of the defendants regarding her own child and other people, which I think is at issue in this litigation.
MR. BURESH: That’s pretty broad, but anyway, I don’t want to argue with you right now. Let’s wait for another question.
MR. DOLAN: Do you have any knowledge as to whether or not Marion ever tried to beat Moira to death?
ELISABETH WATERS: I think it highly unlikely, and certainly I never saw her strike Moira.
MR. DOLAN: Did the family take in any other fosterlings other than Elizabeth Rousseau, Kathryn Krischild, [Cyndi Beckett] or Barry Austin that you know of?
MR. BURESH: I’m going to let the witness answer. I’m objecting that it’s been asked and answered. Go ahead.
ELISABETH WATERS: Well, we didn’t actually have fosterlings, but there were other people who lived in the household from time to time.
MR. DOLAN: Any of those minor children?
ELISABETH WATERS: No.
MR. DOLAN: Who were the other people who lived in the household from time to time from the time period from 1980 through 1989?
ELISABETH WATERS: Greg Harder stayed with us for a while. He was Kat’s boyfriend. H-a-r-d-e-r. Let’s see. KristophKlover, K-r-i-s-t-o-p-h, K-l-o-v-e-r. That’s all I recall off the top of my head.
MR. DOLAN: Do you know where Greg Harder lives now?
ELISABETH WATERS: No, Kat broke up with him years ago as far as I know.
MR. DOLAN: Do you know where his family was from?
ELISABETH WATERS: No.
MR. DOLAN: Do you know where Kristoph Klover lives now?
ELISABETH WATERS: In Oakland.
MR. DOLAN: Do you know where in Oakland?
ELISABETH WATERS: I think it’s Truman Street.
MR. DOLAN: Did you ev
er have a romantic relationship with either of these two people?
MR. BURESH: Objection, instruct the witness not to answer. Invasion of privacy and not reasonably calculated to lead to the discovery of admissible evidence.
MR. DOLAN: Were you ever emotionally involved with either of these two people?
MR. BURESH: Same objection, same instruction.
MR. DOLAN: I’m entitled to probe if there might be bias when I get to these witnesses later on, Scott. That’s all I’m asking. I’m not asking about sex. She doesn’t have a right to privacy on emotional relationships, only sexual ones.
HE WITNESS: You’re asking if I was trying to have an affair with my housemate’s boyfriends?
MR. DOLAN: No.
MR. BURESH: You can go ahead and answer whether you had an emotional relationship with either of those two.
ELISABETH WATERS: No.
MR. DOLAN: Did Marion ever discuss with you any of her beliefs regarding the age of consent?
ELISABETH WATERS: Yes.
MR. DOLAN: Can you tell me when she first discussed that with you?
ELISABETH WATERS: No, not the exact date. But she said repeatedly that anyone who molested a child under the age of puberty should get the death penalty.
MR. DOLAN: Do you know what she meant by the age of puberty?
ELISABETH WATERS: Puberty, as in physical puberty.
MR. DOLAN: No, I am wondering if you have any understanding of what she believed the age of puberty was?
ELISABETH WATERS: I understood her to mean physical puberty.
MR. DOLAN: Ages like–
ELISABETH WATERS: 13.
MR. BURESH: Well–
MR. DOLAN: I’m asking if she had an understanding.
MR. BURESH:—the question assumes a fact not in evidence, namely that there is an age, a specific age of puberty that’s the same regardless of the individual.
MR. DOLAN: I’m asking if she has any understanding what Marion Zimmer Bradley’s definition of puberty is as she used it in that sentence?
ELISABETH WATERS: My belief was that she meant physical puberty. After that she was content to see them thrown in jail.
MR. DOLAN: Okay. And I’m asking you if you have anyunderstanding of what Marion Zimmer Bradley’s definition of physical puberty was in terms of chronological ages?
ELISABETH WATERS: It varies from person to person.
MR. BURESH: He’s asking if you have an understanding of what Marion meant, and if you do have an understanding of what she meant, you can tell him, and if you don’t, you can tell him.
ELISABETH WATERS: I’m sorry, could you repeat the question? It just didn’t quite make sense.
MR. DOLAN: Sure. You indicated that Marion thought that anyone who had sex with a child under the age of puberty ought to be thrown in jail, correct?
ELISABETH WATERS: Yes.
MS. DURRELL: No, she said the death sentence.
ELISABETH WATERS: Death sentence. Pass puberty should go to jail.
MR. DOLAN: Past puberty should go to jail?
ELISABETH WATERS: Yeah, in other words if you molest a 16 year old, you should go to jail. If you molest Kenny, you should get the death penalty. And I asked her if she included Walter in that, and she said, yes.
MR. DOLAN: Did Marion Zimmer Bradley ever tell you that she believed that the age of consent should be lowered?
ELISABETH WATERS: No.
MR. DOLAN: Do you know why—did Marion Zimmer Bradley visit Walter Breen after he had been arrested for molestation of the boy in L.A?
ELISABETH WATERS: I think she went to see him once in–
MR. DOLAN: Can you explain—strike that. Did you have any knowledge as to why she went to visit Walter Breen when she believed that anybody who got caught molesting a child under the age of puberty should be killed?
MR. BURESH: Object on the basis it’s argumentative. If you just lop off the second part after the second and ask if she knows why Marion went down to visit him, that would be fine. Otherwise, it’s argumentative, and I’m objecting and instructing the witness not to answer.
ELISABETH WATERS: She–
MR. BURESH: No, he hasn’t changed the question yet.
MR. DOLAN: Did her beliefs regarding people who molest children under the age of puberty, to your knowledge, ever change?
ELISABETH WATERS: No.
MR. DOLAN: Can you explain why then she went to visit Walter Breen?
MR. BURESH: Same objection.
MR. DOLAN: You said if I cut it off.
MR. BURESH: You didn’t. You said–
MR. DOLAN: And now I’m asking.
MR. BURESH: You didn’t cut it off, you joined it up again.
MS. DURRELL: You just put it in front instead of at the end, Chris.
MR. DOLAN: It’s a different question.
MR. DOLAN: The question is, do you have an understanding as to why she went to visit Walter Breen?
MR. BURESH: That’s fine. He wants to know if you have–
MR. DOLAN: My question—please don’t interpret my question, Scott. I don’t want you interpreting my question. My question speaks for itself. If she doesn’t understand, she can ask me.
MR. BURESH: Ask the question then.
MR. DOLAN: The question was asked, and it will be read back. (Whereupon, the record was read by the reporter.)
ELISABETH WATERS: Yes, he was in Highland Hospital in the jail ward, and they just found out that he had terminal cancer.
MR. DOLAN: Did Walter continue to work for MZB Enterprises after the charges of molestation came up on Ken Smith?
ELISABETH WATERS: Yes.
MR. DOLAN: Did Walter continue to work for MZB Enterprises after he pled guilty to the molestation of Ken Smith?
ELISABETH WATERS: Yes.
MR. DOLAN: Do you know why Walter Breen continued to work for MZB Enterprises after he pled guilty to molesting a child under the age of puberty?
ELISABETH WATERS: Because, unfortunately, when I wrote his contract, I didn’t put a clause in it to allow us to fire him under those circumstances.
MR. DOLAN: Had anyone told you that you couldn’t fire Walter Breen before the termination of his contract?
MR. BURESH: Other than an attorney?
ELISABETH WATERS: Well, no, but the contract was written with a specific term and did not provide for firing him.
MR. DOLAN: So was it your understanding that you couldn’t fire Walter Breen before the expiration of his contract?
ELISABETH WATERS: Yes.
MR. DOLAN: Where did you get that understanding from?
MR. BURESH: Assuming that she got it from somewhere.
MR. DOLAN: Well, it had to come from somewhere.
ELISABETH WATERS: My own very imperfect understanding of the law.
MR. DOLAN: Did you ever have any discussions with Marion Zimmer Bradley about Walter being alone in the company of young boys prior to the molestation of Ken Smith?
ELISABETH WATERS: No.
MR. DOLAN: Did you ever talk to [Glenn Frendel]?
ELISABETH WATERS: No.
MR. DOLAN: Do you know where he resides now?
ELISABETH WATERS: I never met him in my life. He was gone long before I moved out.
MR. DOLAN: Was [Glenn Frendel] around the house at some point before you moved out?
ELISABETH WATERS: He was the one back in the 1960’s?
MR. DOLAN: Correct.
ELISABETH WATERS: I didn’t move out until 1979. I never met him.
MR. DOLAN: I didn’t know if you were talking about moving out—moving out here or moving out of there to another place. I was trying to understand that. Did you ever meet Sean Sullivan?
ELISABETH WATERS: Not to the best of my recollection.
MR. DOLAN: Do you know who Sean Sullivan is?
ELISABETH WATERS: I believe he’s the guy that Walter was accused of molesting in Los Angeles.
MR. DOLAN: Are you aware of any of the charges regarding Sean Sullivan and Walter Breen?
ELISABETH WATERS: Child molesting.
MR. DOLAN: Are you aware of any charge involving molestation which occurred when Sean was in Berkeley?
ELISABETH WATERS: No.
MR. DOLAN: Are you aware of whether there were any allegations of Sean was molested in the hob tub at Green Walls?
ELISABETH WATERS: No.
MR. DOLAN: Was Walter prohibited from having guests after the allegations of—strike that. Was Walter prohibited from having young boys as guests at the goldfish bowl after the charges of molestation were brought concerning Ken Smith?
ELISABETH WATERS: Yes.
MR. DOLAN: Was that done in writing or verbally or how?
ELISABETH WATERS: It was part of his probation. He wasn’t allowed to be with people under 18.
MR. DOLAN: Well, that may have been after he was pled out. My question was after the charge arose regarding Ken Smith. Let me ask a different question. After the charges regarding Ken Smith arose, did you undertake any activity to prohibit Walter Breen from having any young children on any of the premises owned by yourself or Marion Zimmer Bradley?
ELISABETH WATERS: I believe Marion did.
MR. DOLAN: Do you know how that was done?
ELISABETH WATERS: I think she wrote him a letter.
MR. DOLAN: Do you know where that letter is today?
ELISABETH WATERS: No.
MR. DOLAN: Did she keep copies of most of her correspondence?
ELISABETH WATERS: No, usually not.
MR. DOLAN: Do you know what the letter said?
ELISABETH WATERS: No.
MR. DOLAN: Did you read that letter?
ELISABETH WATERS: I don’t remember.
MR. DOLAN: Did Marion draft her own correspondence, or did you draft it, for the most part?
ELISABETH WATERS: Well, since part of her correspondence is answering her fan mail, I do most of it, but for her own personal correspondence, she usually does it.
MR. DOLAN: Do you recall whether you prepared the letter sent to Walter or Marion did?
ELISABETH WATERS: Marion did.
MR. DOLAN: Did you know what the contents of the letter was in any way?
ELISABETH WATERS: I gathered she was saying she was very angry with him and disgusted by his behavior and didn’t want—I think she said she didn’t want him on the property at Green Walls.
MR. DOLAN: Anything else?
ELISABETH WATERS: (Witness shakes head.)
MR. DOLAN: Do you know if she still undertook any activity to remove him from the property at Green Walls?
The Last Closet_The Dark Side of Avalon Page 59
