ELISABETH WATERS: No.
MR. DOLAN: Did you ever go to Marion and say you thought that Walter was molesting Sterling?
ELISABETH WATERS: We went over all this this morning. Yes, I talked to Marion after I found the letter to Dr. Morin, and she said Walter was impotent, so at that point I naturally believed that Walter was not molesting Sterling, and I talked to Sterling later and Sterling–
MR. BURESH: It’s okay. We did talk about it this morning.
MR. DOLAN: You indicate here at the end of this, “I’m really angry about all of this; I feel I’ve been used to help cover up something I would (underlined) never willfully have countenanced.” What did you mean that you felt that you had been used to cover up something?
ELISABETH WATERS: Well, as you have no doubt heard, despite the fact that I was brought up to believe that sex belongs within the bounds of holy matrimony, when I moved out to Berkeley I bought into “the sex is okay as a recreational activity between consenting adults lifestyle,” and I outgrew that. By 1985 people were calling me a prude and complaining that I was too straightlaced. So, I had been cleaning up my act and my reputation, and I have been celibate for years at this point, and I had been working very hard to become the kind of human being I could be proud of again, and now here is a member of my extended family doing something so horrendously horrible, and I felt like it was damaging to my reputation.
MR. DOLAN: How were you used to help cover up something?
MR. BURESH: Other than what she has already testified to?
MR. DOLAN: I didn’t hear anything about that.
MR. BURESH: Well, in your opinion, I’m sure.
MR. DOLAN: How were you used to help cover up something other than what you have testified to already?
ELISABETH WATERS: Other than that, I wasn’t.
MR. DOLAN: How does that, in your mind, constitute a cover-up?
ELISABETH WATERS: At the time I wrote this I was obviously very upset. I was feeling sick, horrified, disgusted, homicidal. I wanted to kill Walter, and I felt that he had used our association, tenuous as it was, as a cloak for his activities. I was overreacting.
MR. DOLAN: You indicate here, and earlier in that paragraph, that Marion said he has been impotent since Moira was two-years old?
ELISABETH WATERS: Uh-hum.
MR. DOLAN: “I didn’t think he was gay; I thought he was celibate. Why shouldn’t I think that?” And then several lines down you say that you feel you have been used to help cover up something. Did you believe that Marion had deliberately deceived you as to Walter being impotent?
ELISABETH WATERS: Absolutely not. She believed that, no question.
MR. DOLAN: Did you believe that Marion ever withheld any information from you regarding Walter’s sexual activity with children?
ELISABETH WATERS: Well, I don’t believe she described to me every accusation that was ever made because I don’t imagine she considered most of them relevant.
MR. DOLAN: The question was–
ELISABETH WATERS: Marion and I generally did not discuss Walter’s sex life. Why should we have?
MR. BURESH: Listen to the question.
MR. DOLAN: The question is, do you think that Marion withheld information from you regarding accusations that Walter had molested children?
MR. BURESH: I have got to object on the basis that it’s uncertain as to what the word “withheld” means, as opposed—it’s a failure to disclose or withholding of information.
MR. DOLAN: Do you think Marion knew about other accusations of child molestation about Walter that she hadn’t shared with you as of 10/8/89?
ELISABETH WATERS: Yes.
MR. DOLAN: Do you have any understanding, as you sit here today, about how many episodes or accusations against Walter Marion had known about that she had not shared with you as of 10/8/89?
ELISABETH WATERS: No, I don’t know for sure that she did not tell me about some. I simply assumed that in the—let’s see, 15 years that she knew him before I knew him, she probably heard a few.
MR. DOLAN: Okay. Let’s go to 10/9/89. It says, “Marion always said she’d divorce Walter if he did this again.” Did you write that?
ELISABETH WATERS: Yes.
MR. DOLAN: Had Marion told you that she would divorce Walter if he did this again?
ELISABETH WATERS: When she was sitting in the car she said, “That does it. I always said I would divorce him if he did this again.”
MR. DOLAN: Now, this was a statement made verbatim to you from Marion Zimmer Bradley, correct?
ELISABETH WATERS: To the best of my recollection, yes.
MR. DOLAN: Do you know who she had always made that statement to before, as she described it?
ELISABETH WATERS: I assumed either to herself or to Walter.
MR. DOLAN: Did you ask her anything like, “Wait, you mean you had told him if he did this again you would divorce him?”
ELISABETH WATERS: No, I did not ask her. She was in the middle of a rant, I mean, he had—we had just told her her husband was a child molester. She was furious. She was shouting.
MR. DOLAN: And you indicated in 10/8/89 that she seemed to think that he had molested both [Glenn Frendel] and [other name]; is that correct?
ELISABETH WATERS: I’m sorry, where are we?
MR. DOLAN: 10/9/89, next sentence?
ELISABETH WATERS: Yes.
MR. DOLAN: You indicate in the next part of that sentence that she was rather startled when you told her about the letter to Dr. Morin about Sterling; hadn’t you already discussed this with her at the time that you read the letter?
ELISABETH WATERS: Yes.
MR. DOLAN: Do you have any understanding as to why she appeared to be “rather startled”?
ELISABETH WATERS: Probably because ten years had intervened between the two incidents. Not everybody remembers things accurately for 10 years.
MR. DOLAN: We are going to come back to some of these things. I just want to cover some of them before we break today. Let’s turn to 10/14/89. The last paragraph you say, “Still, when I think of the things for the past 10 years we simply accepted as parts of Walter’s normal behavior, I want to kill myself.” What “things” were you referring to?
ELISABETH WATERS: His habit of sitting around with children on his lap at conventions; his hanging around with his kids and their friends; his having friends who were teenage boys. A lot of his friends were like in the 15- to 22-year-old range.
MR. DOLAN: Any other things?
ELISABETH WATERS: No, I think that’s about it.
MR. DOLAN: How about any activity of drugs, were those included in those things that you were thinking of that he had done in the past ten years that you accepted as part of his normal behavior?
ELISABETH WATERS: I wasn’t thinking about drugs at the time I wrote this.
MR. DOLAN: Did you think it was awkward that most of Walter’s friends were between the ages of 15 and 22?
MR. BURESH: Objection, vague. I don’t know what you mean by the word “awkward.”
MR. DOLAN: Do you think it was unusual, different, strange, bizarre, any of those?
ELISABETH WATERS: Well, it would be unusual for a normal man, but Walter had the emotional maturity of the average 15 year old, so it seemed to me that he was seeking friends of his emotional age.
MR. DOLAN: Were you ever concerned that Walter was sexually attracted to any of these boys between the ages of 15 and 22?
ELISABETH WATERS: No, I thought he was impotent.
MR. DOLAN: Well, I’m not asking whether he was sexually involved, but whether he was sexually attracted to them?
ELISABETH WATERS: If you’re impotent, aren’t you not sexually attracted?
MR. DOLAN: It doesn’t appear to be in Walter’s case, but, I mean, you’re asking my opinion now, and I don’t think you want that. It appears that he was very active.
ELISABETH WATERS: It was my belief that if you are impotent, you’re not sexually attracted.
MR. BURESH: O
ff the record. (Discussion off the record.)
MR. DOLAN: Back on, please.
MR. DOLAN: Did you write in here this next part about someone saying they wouldn’t let Ian stay overnight unless you or Marion were there because they had heard Ian when he was sitting on Walter’s lap on the stairs saying, “Stop it. That tickles. Don’t touch me there”?
ELISABETH WATERS: Yes, I wrote that.
MR. DOLAN: What were you referring to about that?
ELISABETH WATERS: To the best of my recollection now, what I was doing was confusing together was Tracy saying that Walter wasn’t adult enough to take care of children unsupervised and Moira’s telling me that Tracy had said that she had heard Ian saying, “Don’t touch me there. That tickles.”
MR. DOLAN: So it’s your testimony that you were confusing something Moira said to you about something that you had heard regarding Ian not being able to stay there overnight unless you were there because Walter was too immature; is that correct?
ELISABETH WATERS: My testimony is–
MR. BURESH: Before you testify, I want to hear the answer read back, please. (Whereupon, the record was read by the reporter.)
MR. DOLAN: Look to 10/16/89. Do you see where you say, “The divorce is going to make a lot of extra work, but it beats losing the house in a messy lawsuit.” At the end of the first second full paragraph?
ELISABETH WATERS: Yes.
MR. DOLAN: Did someone tell you that there was a potential that you could lose the house in a messy lawsuit?
ELISABETH WATERS: No.
MR. DOLAN: Did you believe that if there was a lawsuit you might lose the house in a messy lawsuit?
ELISABETH WATERS: No. It’s—we were sensitive about losing the house because of Walter’s activity because Marion had already lost one house because of Walter’s failure to pay bills. I would find them under the desk blotter and he would say he paid them, and they lost the house, and Marion never forgave him for that, so she was hypersensitive on the subject.
MR. DOLAN: So did you have any concerns when you wrote this that Walter’s molestation of children might lead to losing the house in a messy lawsuit?
ELISABETH WATERS: I suppose I thought it was a possibility.
MR. DOLAN: I asked you earlier whether that was one of the reasons why—that prompted the divorce. Do you wish to at all change your testimony after reading this document?
ELISABETH WATERS: I don’t know exactly why Marion divorced him. It was her decision and not mine. My impression was that she was just totally furious with him.
MR. DOLAN: Were you present when Marion talked to Camille about her divorce?
MS. DURRELL: I think that’s been asked and answered.
MR. DOLAN: I don’t think so.
MR. BURESH: It has. Go ahead. I’ll object. Asked and answered. Go ahead and answer.
MR. DOLAN: Were you in the room when they were talking about it?
ELISABETH WATERS: Some of the time, yes.
MR. DOLAN: Was the issue of Marion’s liability because of Walter’s activities discussed during that time that they were talking about the divorce?
MR. BURESH: I’ll object on the basis of the attorney-client privilege. I will instruct the witness not to answer.
MR. DOLAN: She wasn’t getting a divorce. She was sitting there in the room with them. She wasn’t the client. There’s no—that’s totally waived.
MR. BURESH: Camille was the lawyer for the Marion Zimmer Bradley Enterprises.
ELISABETH WATERS: Camille actually was my lawyer as well.
MR. BURESH: She’s her lawyer as well.
MR. DOLAN: Were you getting divorced?
ELISABETH WATERS: No.
MR. DOLAN: Were you there seeking information about the divorce?
ELISABETH WATERS: No.
MR. DOLAN: With you there seeking information about Marion’s divorce?
ELISABETH WATERS: I was there lending Marion moral support, I guess.
MR. DOLAN: So you weren’t there seeking legal advice that day were you, personally?
ELISABETH WATERS: As Marion’s secretary, I was.
MR. DOLAN: But you personally weren’t sitting there looking for legal advice for your own person, Elisabeth Waters, that day when you were in Camille LeGrand’s office, were you?
ELISABETH WATERS: No.
MR. DOLAN: What did Marion and Camille LeGrand talk about regarding Walter’s behavior as it related to the divorce?
MR. BURESH: Same objection, same instruction. I will research this issue in the intervening days between this deposition and the next deposition. I still think it’s attorney/client privilege.
MR. DOLAN: It’s not.
MR. BURESH: I understand.
MR. DOLAN: She’s sitting there just like you or somebody else sitting there. Mark it, please. (Whereupon, the previous question was marked for the record.)
MR. DOLAN: You state that your mother was surprised that Marion was going to divorce Walter. Do you recall having conversations with your mother about this?
ELISABETH WATERS: Uh-hum.
MR. DOLAN: Is your mother still alive?
ELISABETH WATERS: Yes.
MR. DOLAN: She lives now in Stamford?
ELISABETH WATERS: Yes.
MR. DOLAN: On Cascade Road?
ELISABETH WATERS: Yes, with my father.
MR. DOLAN: What is her name?
ELISABETH WATERS: Elaine.
MR. DOLAN: Elaine Waters?
ELISABETH WATERS: Yes.
MR. DOLAN: And what is their address on Cascade Road?
ELISABETH WATERS: 379.
MR. DOLAN: I may get a trip home out of this.
ELISABETH WATERS: Are you planning on going to question my parents?
MR. BURESH: We’ll fly them out here.
MR. DOLAN: Not Connecticut.
MR. DOLAN: You indicate in the next sentence, “What did she expect—that Marion was going to say, ‘You molested a 12 year old; that’s nice dear. What would you like for dinner?’” You wrote that, correct?
ELISABETH WATERS: Yes.
MR. DOLAN: Did you tell your mother that Marion was divorcing Walter because he molested a 12-year-old boy?
ELISABETH WATERS: Yes.
MR. DOLAN: Who is the Beth that’s referenced in this letter?
ELISABETH WATERS: Elizabeth Rousseau.
MR. DOLAN: There’s some discussion in the last paragraph about, “And Beth said something about Ian today—and I can’t remember exactly what it was. (I guess I’m still trying to block some of this), but it sounded like Officer Harris should talk to him. And she also now thinks it wasn’t Kenny in the hot tub with Walter—it was little Sean.” What episode are you talking about in the hot tub?
ELISABETH WATERS: Beth and her boyfriend were in the hot tub with Walter and some kid one night.
MR. DOLAN: Do you know approximately when?
ELISABETH WATERS: Nope.
MR. DOLAN: Was it before or after the report of the molestation of Ken Smith?
ELISABETH WATERS: Before.
MR. DOLAN: Did Beth ever tell you that prior to 10/16/89, this being in the hot tub with Walter and a young boy?
ELISABETH WATERS: It was prior to 10/16/89, but I think it was after—I think it was sometime in September or October when we were talking about Walter’s behavior.
MR. DOLAN: What do you recall Beth telling you about this episode of a young boy being in the hot tub with Walter?
ELISABETH WATERS: That she and her boyfriend and Walter and some kid were in the hot tub and Walter was saying to the kid, “Feel how good the jets feel on your skin.”
MR. DOLAN: Was he saying, “See how good the jets feel on your skin,” or “Feel how good they feel on your legs”? Do you recall if that was the comment?
ELISABETH WATERS: Since I wasn’t there and I don’t remember exactly what Beth said.
MR. DOLAN: Do you recall anything else of Beth’s description of what happened in the hot tub?
ELISABE
TH WATERS: No, just that she said it made her uneasy.
MR. DOLAN: Did Beth tell you that at any time prior to Walter’s identification of—strike that. Did Beth tell you any of this prior to Moira reporting Walter to the police in 1989?
ELISABETH WATERS: No, it was after.
MR. DOLAN: Beth was a resident of the house on Prince Street; is that correct?
ELISABETH WATERS: Yes.
MR. DOLAN: This hot tub you’re referring to is on Prince Street?
ELISABETH WATERS: Yes.
MR. DOLAN: Did you ever investigate any further to find out if anybody was molested in that hot tub by Walter? Please let the record reflect that the
16 witness is laughing.
ELISABETH WATERS: I’m sorry, it’s just that you haven’t seen the property and the hot tub. The hot tub is fully visible right as you come in the back gate, from the porch of the office, from the kitchen, from the living room, from the room that, I think, was then Marion’s office and is now Marion’s bedroom. Philip and I were making out in the hot tub one day, and we got caught, I mean, there’s no expectation of privacy in that hot tub. It’s not a good place to molest anybody.
MR. DOLAN: Okay. My question was, did you ever undertake any investigation to find out whether or not Walter had ever molested either Sean or Kenny in that hot tub?
ELISABETH WATERS: No, because I thought the idea was totally silly.
MR. DOLAN: Did you think that Beth was lying to you?
ELISABETH WATERS: No.
MR. DOLAN: Then why did you think it was silly?
ELISABETH WATERS: There was a difference between sitting in a hot tub saying, “see how good the water feels” and sexually molesting somebody.
MR. DOLAN: Beth indicated it made her uncomfortable, correct?
ELISABETH WATERS: Yes.
MR. DOLAN: Did you think Beth was a prude?
ELISABETH WATERS: I don’t know that I ever thought about it much one way or the other.
MR. DOLAN: Who was Beth’s boyfriend?
ELISABETH WATERS: I don’t remember.
MR. DOLAN: To your knowledge was Walter ever in the hot tub with any other young children other than this child identified by Beth?
MR. BURESH: Other than what she has already testified to.
MR. DOLAN: We went over that this morning.
MR. DOLAN: Well now, this morning she said she was unaware of him ever being in the hot tub with any young children. Now we’ve seen a document which shows he was in the hot tub.
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