by David Walsh
McIlvain: He told me what Betsy told him and asked if I remember that way.
Herman: And your response to Mr LeMond was?
McIlvain: No, I remember being in a room.
News of this development in McIlvain’s evidence was deeply upsetting to the Andreus and to Greg LeMond. It left Betsy and Frankie twisting in the wind as apparently the only people who had heard the drugs exchange and it weakened SCA’s case. Betsy was stunned but her world was still black and white, and when the depositions finished and the hearings took place in Dallas she was as strong as ever:
Herman: Now you know in this proceeding she [Stephanie McIlvain] has denied that she heard Mr Armstrong say such things. Is that true based upon what she has told you previously?
Betsy: She was lying.
Herman: I’m sorry, Ma’am, I didn’t hear you.
Betsy: She was lying.
The hospital incident was just as much an obsession for the Armstrong team as it was for SCA. Perhaps because the details of the story are so human and believable. The science didn’t seem to bother the Armstrong people. They seemed to think they could take care of Emma and of the Swarts. But the hospital incident was chewing them up.
Questioned about it by Armstrong’s attorney Tim Herman during the arbitration, Bill Stapleton chipped in with some testimony of his own: ‘And I was there that afternoon through the whole football game.’
However, three days later, under cross-examination, Stapleton testified: ‘Lance had told me it hadn’t happened . . . I wasn’t in the room.’
He went on to say: ‘It just defies logic that it would [happen], three days after brain surgery, that his medical history wouldn’t have already been taken. But, no, it didn’t happen.’
Five weeks after the Andreus had been deposed in Michigan, their old friend and nemesis Lance Armstrong had made his way to his own deposition in Austin, Texas. It was the last day of November 2005. Jeff Tillotson, lawyer for SCA, began the questioning after a brief outline of the rules. Tillotson is respectful and unaggressive but even he gets snapped at once in a while.
Still, he asks what has to be asked in his low-key way. Indiana. Hospital:
Tillotson: Okay. Do you have any recollection while these individuals were there that a doctor or doctors came into the room and discussed with you your medical treatment or your condition?
Armstrong: Absolutely not.
Tillotson: Okay. Did any medical person ask you, while you were at the Indiana University Hospital whether you had ever used any sort of performance-enhancing drugs or substances?
Armstrong: No. Absolutely not.
Tillotson: So that just never came up? No one ever, as part of your treatment, no one ever asked you that?
Armstrong: No.
Tillotson: Can you offer, or can you— can you help explain to me why Ms Andreu would make that story up?
Armstrong: Well, she said in her deposition that she hates me.
Tillotson: Do you believe she’s making that story up to— to get back at you or to cause you harm?
Armstrong: Whether she’s making up that she hates me?52
Tillotson: No. Do you believe that she’s making— I mean, she’s— according to you, this story where she said she specifically heard you say stuff—
Armstrong: Yeah.
Tillotson: And that when she testified she took Mr Andreu out and confronted him regarding whether or not he was doing the same thing. Do you recall that testimony?
Armstrong: Yeah. Vaguely. But I have no idea why she did that—
Tillotson: Okay.
Armstrong: Other than she hates me.
Tillotson: Okay. Obviously you had a relationship with them. And you knew her, and you go back some time with her. And I’m asking if —
Armstrong: I knew her very little, not very well.
Tillotson: Why would Mr Andreu say the same things?
Armstrong: Probably to support his wife, which I don’t know if you’re married or not, but—
Tillotson: I am.
Armstrong: Sometimes it is required.
Tillotson: And so you think . . . is it your testimony that Mr Andreu was also lying when he said that he heard you say those things regarding your prior use?
Armstrong: One hundred per cent. But I feel for him.
Tillotson: What do you mean by that?
Armstrong: Well, I think he’s trying to back up his old lady.
Betsy and Frankie stuck to their guns about the hospital room. Interestingly, Lance’s friend and former coach Chris Carmichael and his wife Paige, whom one might have expected to be called by the Armstrong team, did not give evidence. Neither did Lisa Shiels.
It was a traumatic experience for Stephanie McIlvain, and I’m sure there was nothing she wanted more than to be permitted to escape from the headlights. She was trapped, however. James Startt, my initial conduit to Frankie and Betsy, testified that he and McIlvain talked about the incident at the 2004 Tour de France. He had heard the story and when the opportunity presented itself in 2004, he asked McIlvain about it.
James asked, ‘Is it true what happened in that hospital room . . . what Betsy told me?’ And she said, ‘Yes, it was.’
SCA had noted from her earlier deposition that Kathy LeMond had illustrated the stress she and Greg were feeling by telling the hearing that Greg had begun taping calls in connection with Lance. Stephanie had been taped in a thirty-three-minute call in July 2004. SCA issued a subpoena obliging LeMond to place the tape in the hands of the hearing. It made for uncomfortable listening. Greg LeMond assures McIlvain early on that he is not taping the conversation, he then goes on to talk about having been through personal issues, makes some small talk, and finally gets to the issue of the hospital room.
LeMond outlines the Betsy and Frankie version of the hospital story and asks if McIlvain would be willing to testify if he needed her support in some future lawsuit.
McIlvain: If I was subpoenaed I would.
Greg: Yeah?
McIlvain: ‘Cause I’m not going to lie. You know I was in that room. I heard it.
They continue to speak about Armstrong. LeMond indulges in a little conjecture as to what might happen if the entire Armstrong myth collapsed. McIlvain is more realistic:
McIlvain: Well, the whole thing of it is, Greg, there are so many people protecting him that it is just sickening, you know.
Greg: But the people protecting him know.
McIlvain: I know. They all know.
Greg: Yeah?
McIlvain: Well, because I know – and this you don’t repeat – but I know for a fact then when the whole book came out, Chris Carmichael made a call to my friend and said, ‘Oh, you know, I’ve been sitting here, thinking, thinking, thinking who was in that room. If I totally remember the incident, yes he did admit to what he was taking. But I don’t really think Stephanie and Betsy Andreu were in there, and I don’t think Lisa Shiels was in there.’ And I just laughed. I said, ‘You tell him that, yeah, I was in there because I remember him [Chris Carmichael] looking around the room and seeing who was in that room.’ So then my friend says, ‘Oh my God, that’s what he said. He said he looked around the room to make sure everybody in that room was trustworthy.’
The SCA. Fun to stay at the SCA.
18
‘Dude, I thought we were friends.’
Lance Armstrong
For any future biographers of Lance Armstrong, the sworn deposition available in transcript form or in video on the internet is an essential resource. Drive-by Character Assassinations, A Compilation Album.
Watch him. Lance sits patiently in a lilac shirt and crew cut and describes a world wherein a good man is beset at all times by a motley army of whores, drunks, addicts, cheats, liars and trolls. It is too much. He is above all this. He makes the point a few times that he has too much going on in life to have been able to familiarise himself with all this stuff he is being asked about. When Lance is not shredding somebody’s reputation, he is struggli
ng to recall some of the bigger events in his life. How much he gave. What people said. When he met key figures in his life. Lots of things were very blurry.
Armstrong also had a talent for being difficult.
Tillotson: Were you able to examine the tape that Mr Andreu made of his conversations with Mr Stapleton and Mr Knaggs?
Armstrong: No.
Tillotson: Several years later do you remember at the deposition a transcript being produced of the tape he says he made?
Armstrong: Yes.
Tillotson: Okay. If you’ll turn to tab 16, which has been marked as ‘Andreu Exhibit 1’, I’ll represent to you this is a copy of the transcript that was produced at that deposition . . . I can’t remember, I thought you had an opportunity to read this transcript while at the deposition. Have you had an opportunity, either at the deposition or since then, to review this transcript?
Armstrong: No, sir.
Tillotson: Okay. I’m going to turn – direct – your attention to a couple of things that are said, and if you’ll turn to what’s been marked as page three of the transcript . . . If you’ll see there at the top, Mr Andreu was reported to say, ‘She won’t do that. She didn’t – she did not tell David Walsh about the hospital room, know that for sure . . .’ And then Mr Andreu says, ‘Cuz I never told anybody about the hospital room, you know.’ Someone says, ‘Right’. ‘I mean, cuz . . .’ and then it’s inaudible. ‘ . . . Hospital, and, you know, I don’t know about [inaudible] hospital room happened, but I’ve never told anybody, because I – you know – David Walsh for me, what does this shit accomplish? It accomplishes nothing.’ Do you see that?
Armstrong: Uh-huh. I do. It’s hard to follow, but I see it.
Tillotson: Okay. If Mr Stapleton was at the hospital room watching the game, and knew that the hospital-room incident had never happened . . . do you have any reason why he wouldn’t tell Mr Andreu: ‘What the heck are you talking about? What do you mean you never told anyone about something that never happened?’
Armstrong: Well, I don’t think he was there to take him on, but I have no idea why he wouldn’t say that.
Tillotson: If you’ll turn to page five of this transcript. Let me ask you this before I ask another question about some actual comments. Did you know that Mr Stapleton and Mr Knaggs were going to go meet with Mr Andreu to discuss the possibility of obtaining an affidavit or a statement from Ms Andreu regarding Mr Walsh’s book?
Armstrong: No. Not that I remember.
Tillotson: So you didn’t authorise them to go do it, or tell them to go do it? They just went and did it?
Armstrong: Not to my recollection.
Tillotson: Did they report back to you that they had met with Mr Andreu at the 2004 Tour de France and had talked to him about the book?
Armstrong: Not to my recollection.
Tillotson: Okay. So, until it was revealed at the deposition of Ms Andreu, did you have any idea that Mr Stapleton and Mr Knaggs had actually talked to Mr Andreu at the 2004 Tour de France regarding Mr Walsh’s book and the possibility of getting a statement from Betsy?
Armstrong: Oh, I think that would be unfair to say. I mean, there’s— the Tour is wide open. There are people everywhere. Frankie is somebody that was on our team. I mean, people were talking about the book, obviously, so . . . it didn’t come up like that, but . . .
Tillotson: Was Mr Andreu on the team in ’04?
Armstrong: No.
Tillotson: Okay. So I think it was their testimony that this conversation took place in 2004. It would have to have been because they’re talking about Mr Walsh’s book which wasn’t published till 2004. Right?
Armstrong: Correct.
Tillotson: Okay. I don’t think I fully understood what you were telling me. Do you recall if Mr Stapleton or Mr Knaggs told you that they had this conversation with Mr Andreu?
Armstrong: Not this— I mean, not this specific conversation. But they could have said that they saw Frankie in the lodge or outside the bus. I don’t know.
Tillotson: Now, prior to Mr Andreu’s deposition, you did call him, did you not?
Armstrong: I— yes.
Tillotson: Did you actually speak to him?
Armstrong: Yes.
Tillotson: What was your reason for calling him?
Armstrong: Well, I think I called because . . . because we— because Kathy LeMond had done her deposition, and had all kinds of crazy things to say, which were news to us.
Tillotson: Any other reason you called him?
Armstrong: Other than to say hello, no.
Tillotson: Were you trying to influence his testimony in any way?
Armstrong: Of course not.
Tillotson: Were you trying to warn him?
Armstrong: Of course not. And, in fact, he said that on the phone . . . he said, ‘I totally understand.’ He said, ‘I haven’t heard of any of this stuff either.’ No. I—
Tillotson: Did you discuss with him the statements attributed to you in the Indiana University Hospital room?
As well as calling up Frankie Andreu before he testified, Lance had also been speaking to Stephanie McIlvain.
Tillotson: Did you speak with Stephanie McIlvain before her deposition?
Armstrong: Yes.
Tillotson: When did you talk to her?
Armstrong: I don’t recall. She called me about her neighbour.
Tillotson: Was this a neighbour that needed some help, or was this the neighbour that has cancer?
Armstrong: Correct.
Tillotson: Okay. What did you talk with her about, other than the personal things related to her neighbour?
Armstrong: That’s it.
Tillotson: Did you talk about her upcoming deposition?
Armstrong: No.
Tillotson: Did you talk about any of the testimony from Kathy LeMond, Greg LeMond or the Andreus?
Armstrong: No.
Greg LeMond had testified that he had received a series of calls from Armstrong associates. He said John Burke, president of Trek bikes, where both cyclists had contracts, told him that he was being pressured by Armstrong’s associates to get LeMond to retract his words about Ferrari: ‘For me, it was Lance was trying to extort me, trying to threaten me.’
As for Kathy LeMond, she had broken down during her deposition. ‘Public opinion is very pro-Lance Armstrong, and we take a lot of flak if we say anything negative about him, and it’s difficult for our kids.’
Now compared to so many other details in his testimony, where Lance’s memory was poor to the point of being treacherous, about this one thing he was pinpoint sharp. Little wonder Kathy had broken down. Lance had news for her about her husband. Armstrong clearly recollected the call he put into Greg after I broke the Ferrari story. Poor Greg. He has big problems apparently.
Armstrong: So I called him up and said, ‘What’s up with that?’
Tillotson: What did he respond, as you recall?
Armstrong: I’ve heard his recollection of the conversation, which is completely opposite from my recollection, because Greg, who I know has serious drinking and drug problems, is – was – clearly intoxicated: yelling, screaming. I had to practically keep the phone about a foot away. I then knew I was dealing with a wild man, and just— just tried to get through the conversation.
Tillotson: Okay.
Armstrong: But it was an assault on the other end, which is obviously opposite of what we’ve all read and seen.
Tillotson: Let me ask about that. You did call him? He didn’t call you? Is that right?
Armstrong: I called him.
Tillotson: Okay.
Armstrong: . . . at the Four Seasons in New York.
Tillotson: Okay. To—
Armstrong: His cell phone.
Tillotson: Okay. From your cell phone?
Armstrong: No. To his cell phone. I called from the LAN line.
Tillotson: Okay. To get some explanation for why is he saying these things? Is that fair to say?
Armstrong: I thin
k more just to— because it came through Walsh. Obviously, I don’t trust much of anything that David Walsh says. So just to . . . just to clarify that it was, in fact, what he said.
Tillotson: You said that Mr LeMond has serious drinking and drug problems?
Armstrong: I mean . . . you know, I don’t go drinking with him, so I don’t know for a fact, but I think that’s pretty much common knowledge.
Tillotson: And is it your testimony you could tell that he was intoxicated on the phone when you talked to him?
Armstrong: Aggressive, agitated, angry, belligerent, like a drunk.
Tillotson: Okay. Were his words slurring, or was he irrational in some sense?
Armstrong: I think his words always pretty much slur.
Jeff Tillotson put it to Armstrong that in response to Greg LeMond he had said everyone dopes or everyone does it: ‘Oh come on, Greg, you know we all do it.’
Tillotson: Is that untrue?
Armstrong: That’s absolutely not true. Why would I call somebody to criticise them for saying I dope, and then say we all dope? That’s ridiculous.
After a brief digression pointing out how LeMond’s recollection of the conversation was entirely a drink-fuelled fantasy, Armstrong returned for another quick splash of battery acid:
Armstrong: You know, the most interesting part of that conversation, and this is going to sound incredibly juvenile, but I said, ‘Dude, I thought we were friends, you know, we’ve been good with each other.’ And he continued to scream, and say, ‘Friends, what do you mean friends? You didn’t even invite me to the Ride for the Roses this year.’ I’m like, ‘Wait a minute. Is that the issue here?’ I said, ‘Well, we didn’t invite you because last year you were drunk the whole time. You set up competing autograph sessions when we were trying to do good things for the fight against cancer.’ I said, ‘We invited you to the gala when we were going to introduce everybody that was there – Miguel Indurain, Eddy Merckx, the greatest of all time. You showed up literally sixty seconds before you were going to be introduced. Of course, we didn’t invite you back.’
