WHAT DID THIS CIRCLE AROUND MUNCH DO?
They practiced Black Masses, very oriented towards sex of course. It was in the fringe; I don’t think Munch was really involved. But Dagny Juel was—she was a remarkable female feature in the fin de siècle of the Norwegian milieu. In the Symbolist tradition you find a rather civilized Satanist, a sort of Satanist with refinement.
WERE THERE ANY OTHER MORE RECENT EUROPEAN SATANIC TRADITIONS?
The German tradition is something in itself. After the O.T.O. they had these people—not exactly Satanists, but in some ways they are remotely the same—in these societies, who sacrificed humans. They were not really Satanists but rather some sort of paramilitary pagans.
THE BLACK METAL PEOPLE COULD BE SEEN TO HAVE ACTED OUT IN A SIMILAR WAY.
There is a difference between cultivating sinister ideas and acting them out. This is a very important distinction. I think Ihsahn of Emperor likes these sinister ideas, and meditates upon them, but he would never kill someone or burn a church. He has declared his opposition to that sort of anti-Christianity. He said to me he would support church burning if it was a new, ugly church. Not the old churches. He doesn’t really condemn that, but he thinks it’s unsophisticated.
IS IHSAHN ONE OF THE BLACK METAL PEOPLE WHO CONTACTED THE O.T.O.?
No, he wasn’t. But he’s one of the few people I would have let in.
PEOPLE LIKE BÅRD “FAUST” YOU WOULD NOT LET IN?
A murderer would not be allowed into the O.T.O., according to its rules.
BUT BEFORE HE’D DONE THAT?
I think he wrote us a rather primitive letter, just two lines about “I’m a boy of 18 who is interested in Satanism,” or something.
WERE BLACK METAL PEOPLE CONTACTING THE O.T.O. BECAUSE OF THE IMAGE THEY HAD OF IT FROM THE NEWSPAPERS?
Exactly, this was the case.
THE PROPAGANDA FROM THESE NEWSPAPER STORIES SOUNDS HARD TO BELIEVE.
Yes, and the juridical establishment didn’t believe it as well. The leading figures in the police in Oslo were astonished by it, and they didn’t believe it at all.
YOU WERE CONTACTED BY THEM?
No... well, after two years, after all this church burning they came. They were standing down in the courtyard. I didn’t open the door when I saw it was the police. They came to some friends of mine, the same thing. I had no interest in talking to them. As a matter of principle I never let officials into my home—never. They are another tribe.
HOW WOULD YOU DESCRIBE IHSAHN’S BELIEFS?
I would classify him as an intellectual, civilized, and intelligent kind of Satanist. A positive Satanist, who is not predominantly anti-Christian. He is not interested in anti-Christianity but rather a kind of creative Satanism—a romantic, Gothic Satanist. He is strongly revolting against all these new and ugly things which we find in the modern world. He’s a sort of aesthetic Satanist.
MORE IN THE TRADITION OF LORD BYRON, OR SUCH PEOPLE?
Yes.
WHAT CAN YOU SAY ABOUT ∅YSTEIN AARSETH?
I don’t know much about Øystein. I spoke with a journalist who had interviewed him some years ago, and he had been at Helvete, this shop he had, and Øystein wouldn’t open the shop because his grandmother had forbidden him to speak to the media!
MANY OF THE BLACK METAL PEOPLE SEEM TO BE MORE BARK THAN BITE, AND RATHER TAME IN PERSON.
Yes, most of them—but not only. We have had at least two murders, and one disappearance. A son of a priest in Tønsberg. He’s disappeared in connection with Satanism. But they haven’t found him dead or alive.
DO YOU KNOW ANY DETAILS ABOUT THIS DISAPPEARANCE?
He wasn’t a Satanist himself but he may have met someone who was. He was a part of a role-playing group, so maybe he met some of them there, I don’t know.
IT SEEMS THAT ROLE-PLAYING GAMES MAY HAVE BEEN AN INFLUENCE ON THE BLACK METAL PHENOMENON. THERE’S A PHOTO OF GRISHNACKH IN HIS ROOM WITH A BIG MAP OF MIDDLE-EARTH ON THE WALL, TAKEN FROM A ROLE-PLAYING MANUAL.
The name “Grishnackh” is taken from Tolkien anyway.
DO YOU THINK A LOT OF THEIR INSPIRATION COMES FROM SUCH ROLE-PLAYING IMAGERY?
It may be that their range of study is somewhat limited. I think many of them have grown up with the Bible and phone book as the only books in the house. We should also pay regard to the long Christian tradition in Norway—that’s very important. I think it’s a very sound revolt against that kind of education and culture, if you can give Christianity those attributes.
CAN YOU SEE BLACK METAL AS A CONTINUATION OF THE PARTICULAR NORWEGIAN PIETIST TRADITION OF CHRISTIANITY THAT EXISTS ON THE WESTERN AND SOUTHERN COAST?
Yes, it continues it because of its fanaticism, and it’s a simple standard of truth, which is sort of positivistic in an extremely primitive way. There is no kind of irony, for instance. They believe in the book without any reference to the world. They are not able to see things without it. They have no concept of relativism. It is just like Fascism in Italy or Nazism in Germany. You have this low church culture which predominates in the small communities.
DO YOU SEE ANY REASON WHY BLACK METAL BANDS WOULD HAVE A ROMANTICIZED NATIONALIST IDEA ABOUT NORWAY?
Yes, if they can connect it to the paganism, then you have a romantic affinity. Without that I don’t think it would play a very important part. But I don’t think they are particularly educated in this aspect of nationalism itself, really.
WHAT DO SEE AS THE CONNECTION BETWEEN SATANISM AND PAGANISM?
Just the anti-Christianity. That’s the connection.
THERE SEEMS TO BE A GENERAL SHIFT FROM THE MORE MEDIEVAL-STYLE SATANISM TO AN INTEREST IN PAGANISM, AND A DARK OBSESSION WITH NATURE. DO YOU THINK THEY UNDERSTAND WHAT THE HEATHEN WORLDVIEW MIGHT BE?
I don’t think they understand very much, in general! But of course Satan is a Judeo-Christian person, and if they are going to get rid of Judeo-Christianity, they will have to get rid of Satan as well, as a matter of fact. He is a sort of Trotsky in the revolution, when it comes down to it. Satan is useful in the Christian world. It’s a point to consider, because it’s logical—if you are going to be consequently anti-Christian, then is Satan just a mediating figure?
SOME OF THE HEATHEN BANDS HAVE REJECTED SATANISM COMPLETELY, LIKE ENSLAVED.
I don’t think the romantic Satanists are going to creep over into this, because these people have managed to make a positive thing out of Satan. Those Satanists whose only motive is to revolt against Christianity will have to get rid of Satan, because he’s a part of Christianity. The other ones who seek a positive Satan, will of course not have any need to.
WHAT ARE YOUR OWN VIEWS TOWARD CHRISTIANITY IN NORWAY?
I do think Christianity makes people more stupid. That is a consequence, in many ways, of a disgusting religion. I don’t think it’s very honest, with their ideas of sacrifice, and of pain, all this nonsense, all this masochistic view of life. They are subjected to the power as a metaphysical principle, and are creeping before their god. I wouldn’t call it good morals. And they have the propagating view that half the world is going to end in eternal pain because they don’t submit to it. I find it disgusting in that sense—completely disgusting.
SO YOU CAN SYMPATHIZE WITH BLACK METAL PEOPLE REACTING AGAINST IT?
Yes, yes—that’s quite to the point. But I mean, I’m not a teenager anymore.
CAN YOU SEE ANY VALUE TO WHAT THEY DID?
With the burning of churches? Well, of course there is a certain value in it because it causes the Christianity community to wonder. It’s a strong reaction, but I myself wouldn’t want to react against something as weak as an individual church, something as feeble as that. But I can see a certain value in it as a revolt and to make people consider a few religious questions.
DO YOU THINK THIS HAS MADE THE NORWEGIAN CHURCH STRONGER?
Of course it has, and therefore I do think it is outrageous to burn churches!
YET THERE IS A CERTAIN SYMBOLIC VALUE AS A REACTION AGAINST
CHRISTIANITY?
Yes, but those who are really reacting toward Christianity are all these people now going to church. This is the mentality of people in the cities, at least when it comes to the official Norwegian church. I’m rather indifferent to the State Church. I’m not indifferent to these terrible small sects who teach their people with fear from the day they are able to talk. I support any revolt, however strong it is, against that kind of Christianity because I think it makes people into neurotics. It should be forbidden by law because they torture their own children. I do see they had fairly good reasons for their revolt. I wouldn’t burn a church myself, but I can understand why they are burning churches.
DO YOU THINK IT HAS POTENTIAL TO DEVELOP ANY MORE?
Yes, it has a lot of potential. And it will develop.
YOU DON’T THINK THAT IT WILL DIE OUT WHEN THE PUBLIC LOSES INTEREST IN THE MUSIC, WHICH IS BOUND TO HAPPEN?
No, it will go into new forms. Because now one has already seen a polarity, and this polarity will not dispose of itself at all.
DO YOU SEE THESE PEOPLE MATURING INTO A MORE SOPHISTICATED FORM OF OCCULTISM OR ANTI-CHRISTIANITY?
Yes, and I think that will happen, or already is happening. For certain parts of it—at least one out of ten.
IS THERE A MORE INTELLIGENT PLACE FOR THESE PEOPLE TO GO AT THAT POINT?
I think the O.T.O. would be such a place, indeed—although the O.T.O. is not very much for revolting. It’s a Masonic organization, as a matter of fact. It’s not a movement.
PÅL MATHIESEN
WHAT HAS BEEN THE AFTER-EFFECT OF THE CHURCH BURNINGS IN NORWAY?
The congregations that have been affected by the church burnings have had a huge new interest in the community from people who might baptise their children and so on, but don’t actually go to church themselves. Where there have been church burnings and rebuilding of the churches, there has been a huge interest in the congregations, so they have experienced a kind of “Christianization” during this process, but it hasn’t affected Christianity in Norway as such. I don’t think more people have become Christians in Norway because of Norwegian Satanism, but the specific congregations have been affected by it.
HOW CHRISTIAN IS THE AVERAGE NORWEGIAN?
It depends on what you mean by “being a Christian.” This is a big discussion in Norway right now. I think we have a rather deep Christian culture here. The belief in the rituals—I don’t think that’s very strong. It’s a cultural phenomenon, you feel related to a true culture. In that sense I would say Norway is a Christian country with strong Christian culture, but not with a strong Christian life for the people living there, if you can understand the distinction.
IS THE HATRED OF CHRISTIANITY HERE REASONABLE?
I don’t think it has much to do with reason. If they hate Christianity that’s not a very reasonable thing to do. It’s emotional. As for why they hate it—when I was 15 or 16 years old I hated Christianity. I wasn’t brought up with Sunday School, going to church, reading the Bible, saying prayers, etc., and I really hated it at the same age as many people who become Satanists.
Opposition toward Christianity is very strong among the youth in Norway. You’ll find very few Norwegian youngsters that have a relationship to Christianity; if they have it, they have a very extreme relationship towards it, and are involved with very extreme charismatic movements. But most people actually hate it.
Fifteen years later I look upon it and I think that was a Christian thing, to be in opposition to the religion. To hate God, or to hate the Church, meant that I actually felt something for it and had a relationship with it. The hatred shows that you have love, that you have a concern. You wouldn’t be able to put many emotions and hatred into it if you didn’t have a strong feeling of what I would call love.
It’s interesting when you come to Satanism, and look upon it as a religious phenomenon. I would maybe define some of these people as Christians today, because I think the hatred they have is actually showing that maybe in their heart they’re loving God, or have a relationship to Jesus. I think it’s possible. It’s an extreme form of what happens when people are jealous—they kill their lover. It’s not an unchristian thing to hate the Church. A lot of good Christians have done that. I’m not saying this is the truth, but it’s an interesting way to look upon the Satanists as a Christian movement to some extent...
It think it’s important to differentiate between the opportunistic side of Satanism and the serious side. The leaders have a deliberate view upon religion as such, and I would say they are not opportunists. In its heart Norwegian Satanism has a very close relationship to Norwegian Christianity.
IS THERE A TRADITION OF SATANISM IN NORWAY?
We definitely have an occult tradition in the Nordic religion, that’s obvious. We also have occult traditions within Christianity both through the medieval age and after the Protestant reformation. There is a very long and continuous religious tradition of occult phenomena. I would call the medieval tradition of burning witches something which is based in the occult, and that’s rather close to the Church today. It’s a verdict on the immoral aspect.
When I was talking to Ihsahn, he was saying that what he hates most about the Church is that it’s really weak. It doesn’t have a morality. It’s immoral and he would look upon that as one of the things he hated most about it. If the Christian Church would actually lower a verdict on people, to judge and be hard with that, he would have much more respect for it. That’s a pretty Christian thought to me.
Satanism is really just another expression of occult phenomena in Christianity. Freemasonry, for example, is a Christian occult tradition. There are many movements on the fringe of the Christian religion that still have a relation to occultism. All these occult phenomena that we have been seeing, including people like August Strindberg and things that we have seen in the last two centuries, have a relation to Christianity. I have a rather broad definition of Christianity.
HOW WOULD YOU DEFINE OCCULTISM?
Occultism has something to do with the dark aspect of human nature. It’s based on undogmatic thinking—you take your own personal experience as a basis for what you do. You don’t use religious laws or anything of that nature. It’s an extreme form of subjective religious experience. This could be almost anything. With this definition I would have to say that some of the charismatic Christian movement is also “occult.” They have no law, they have no government, they are just experiencing, choosing whatever aspects they feel like, and experiencing dark aspects by going through that.
IS THE CHRISTIAN MASS AN OCCULT RITE?
It has aspects of the occult. The communion, in the Catholic and Greco-Roman tradition, has occultic aspects, but I wouldn’t say it is occult.
Also the sacrifice of something which has this love—the killing of it—has occult aspects, but I wouldn’t say it is occult. These phenomena are related and it’s a typical historically unaware thing that we do today when we look upon Satanism as something very new and different, wondering, “What is this?” It’s in a long, long tradition of religiosity which is based on human experience and rituals. It’s not anything new at all. If you look at the Old Testament, God also did this, he was burning down cities and killing people when he was dissatisfied with them. This aspect in religion is not new.
I have a reason for making this analysis of it, and the motivation is to make it human in some way. In the postmodern way of thinking, you see one phenomenon which is extreme and then you say that you have to judge all these people. These are bad people and we just have to hate them and isolate them. I don’t like that mentality and I think it’s wrong.
If you look at Satanism as a reflection of the spiritual life and spiritual tradition that we are standing in, I feel that it makes the Satanists more human. It makes them moral people who actually have a cause, and who are trying to say something to us. If you see some of the leaders, they are bright and reflective people, they are people with integrity. I would look upon them as m
oral people, and we have to take seriously what they are saying. If I thought of them just an extreme example of disobedient youngsters, I wouldn’t have to listen to them.
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