He turned on this woman and said, “How dare you say that to this man! Have you ever made anybody laugh in your life? Have you ever entertained anybody? Have you ever done anything that’s worthwhile? This man has made people laugh and entertained people over the years, and you’re telling him that’s a very bad joke.” He drove her to tears, and I kept saying, “Groucho, I don’t care. It’s just a joke, she didn’t mean it,” but Groucho was absolutely livid. He does this all the time: he defends people in show business, especially writers, against what he considers the “civilians” or the outsiders.
Groucho has a tremendous quality of loyalty. He has had the same friends over forty years, always defending them. I’m sure you’ll hear this from a lot of other people. He’s very protective. And he’s unique in another respect: He’s the only comedian everybody knows who will speak highly of other comedians he thinks are talented. I remember being at a party with him in Malibu many, many years ago, and he kept saying, “I’ve got to meet this young man. I just heard him on the radio. He’s a disc jockey and he’s on at eleven o’clock at night. His name is Steve Allen.” You go to Groucho’s house now, and Steve Allen’s there. Groucho discovered him and plugged him to everybody around. As soon as he heard Woody Allen, Groucho knew he was funny and told everyone. I never heard one comedian praise another. This was one of Groucho’s best qualities.
I
Have you found Groucho to be the same person over the years?
JULIUS EPSTEIN
Well, compared to twenty years ago, everything is slower; it’s like under water. But his mind is still there. He’ll say clever things. I remember even on his brightest, chirpiest day, he was always difficult about one thing: when he came to dinner, if dinner wasn’t served very quickly, he let you know about it.
I
At seven o’clock preferably.
JULIUS EPSTEIN
Well, as early as possible. And then Groucho’s attitude about women. I did a screenplay many years ago of Minnie’s Boys, which later became a musical. My screenplay wasn’t done because the studio said, “Who are we going to get to play the Marx Brothers as kids?” It was mostly about the younger years, the growing up of the Marx Brothers.
I
I didn’t know there was a screenplay. You did it before the play?
JULIUS EPSTEIN
Oh yes, many years before. It was ’55 or ’56. And when we got through with it, where were the actors who were gonna play the Marx Brothers? Who can make you believe it was the Marx Brothers and be as funny as the Marx Brothers? They couldn’t cast it. I don’t know what they did in the musical, but I imagine they ran into the same trouble. When I did the screenplay, Groucho always acted as consultant. He told me all the anecdotes of being in trouble, of having to climb out of windows and leave town. He was quite interested in seeing that those episodes were in the screenplay. All the Marx Brothers are very proud of their prowess with women. He always talked about Harpo—Harpo was the great he-man of all time.
I
And, of course, Chico.
JULIUS EPSTEIN
Well, I remember my first wife’s uncle tried to beat up Chico. But Harpo everybody loved, and Harpo was evidently the great one. Groucho always would say, “Put this in the screenplay: We were in Punxsutawney, Pennsylvania, and we had to climb out the window when the husbands came,” and things like that. He was quite proud of that. But I think Groucho should be proud that his friends for years are still his friends. Except for the ones who aren’t alive anymore, you still see them when you go to his house.
I remember Bogart there one night—I’ll never forget this: he was drinking from a little bottle with thick white liquid in it, and he would periodically give it a swash. He’d take a drink of this white liquid—medicine, someone said. We asked, “What’s wrong with you?” and Bogart made a big joke, saying, “I have cancer.” We didn’t know he had it at the time, but he did have it. He was taking the medicine for the pain in his throat. But all those people, Groucho’s old friends, were there. Some of them were writers at the bottom of the totem pole. I think the majority of Groucho’s old-time friends, the ones he’s known the longest, were there forty years ago. People like Nunnally Johnson, Nat Perrin, Harry Tugend, Sidney Sheldon, and Bert Granet are still his friends after all these years. To me, that’s always been his outstanding characteristic—that and his absolute generosity toward other performers, which is very unusual with performers.
His hold on the young people is incredible. It’s something like Bogart. Groucho and Bogart had quite a lot in common. It’s strange to think that if Bogart were alive today, he’d be past seventy. I remember about two years ago we had a small dinner party, and Groucho was there. My son, who was then nineteen, came with a friend who said to Groucho, “You can’t imagine what a thrill this is for me to meet you, Groucho,” then he went into a long spiel. Of course Groucho was embarrassed and made a typical Groucho remark like, “What the hell do you know?” Irving Brecher was there, and he got up and said, “Groucho, this is also what we have thought about you throughout the years.” Well, Groucho with all his aplomb and everything couldn’t really take it, but he had to. It was a quiet moment.
I
And what was your son’s friend’s reaction to Groucho’s reaction?
JULIUS EPSTEIN
It’s what he expected from Groucho. It’s my own personal opinion, though, that Groucho feels he has to live up to the legend. He has to be insulting to everybody; he feels they expect him to treat them like he treated Margaret Dumont.
I
Were you ever insulted by Groucho?
JULIUS EPSTEIN
No, I can’t remember being insulted, and I can’t remember any of Groucho’s friends being insulted by him. I think he saved it for the civilians.
I
Do you find Groucho the same in real life as he was in the films?
JULIUS EPSTEIN
Yes, yes. I also have a slight feeling that he has to sort of play the character. But Groucho’s also a very liberal man, and he’s always been interested in politics and everything that’s going on in the world, an omnivorous reader. I know a lot about his background, not from Groucho, but from doing research on the screenplay.
I
You knew his wives.
JULIUS EPSTEIN
Yes. I think Groucho’s always married the same woman. I knew all of them. Ruth was the first wife; like all of them, she was gentile, attractive, pretty. She was a good tennis player. I guess she was the only athlete among his wives. That’s where Groucho’s son, Arthur, gets it. He was a really good tennis player. Have you talked with Nunnally Johnson?
I
Several times.
JULIUS EPSTEIN
Nunnally made one of the greatest remarks at Groucho’s house, one of the greatest squelches of all times. It was a sitdown dinner party right after the big success of Guys and Dolls. Frank Loesser was there, and Nunnally Johnson was there. There were twelve or fourteen of us, and the topic of conversation was about a lawyer in town, a theatrical lawyer. He was a big ladies’ man, always married to a star or going with them, and the conversation turned to whether or not he had false teeth.
Frank Loesser, who considered himself very New Yorkish, said, “Is this all you people have to talk about?” Silence. Of course, he insulted practically the whole table, and Nunnally put his knife and fork down, folded his arms, and said, “All right, Frankie…let’s hear some New York talk.” There wasn’t another word from Frankie the entire evening. It was something Groucho could have said. Sometimes Groucho’s friends talk like he does. It rubs off. Groucho’s friends say things in his style. Oh, the evenings with Groucho were always fun. He always had very entertaining people—no dead weights.
I
Who are some of the friends you can remember being with Groucho?
JULIUS EPSTEIN
A lot of them Earl Wilson would call celebrities. Bogart. Steve Allen was there a lot because I think Groucho kind o
f considers he discovered him. Irwin Allen is a great friend of his. Were you there for his birthday party?
I
Yes.
JULIUS EPSTEIN
Well, we were in Europe, so we didn’t get there. But that would give you a pretty good idea of the kind of people Groucho always had over.
I
Basically, then, you find Groucho the same person he always was?
JULIUS EPSTEIN
The old delivery isn’t there, but he’ll occasionally come out with something. I guess Groucho will become a word in the language. A lot of people liked Harpo better than Groucho, but I thought Groucho was the important character. Without Groucho the veritable characteristics of the Marx Brothers wouldn’t have existed. He was the lead character. The lines they always quote are about Groucho. What could you quote about Harpo? Punching on a horn or something like that? Harpo was, I think, one of the nicest men I’ve known. Very quiet, very soft. The most intellectual. I don’t think any of them had any education at all. You know, Groucho’s fairly well-read. If they had had any education at all, no telling what they would have done.
I
Maybe not as well.
JULIUS EPSTEIN
Maybe not as well! What’s that Somerset Maugham story about the sexton?
I
“The Verger.”
JULIUS EPSTEIN
Yeah. Well, he took it from an old Jewish folk tale. It was about a shammes, and he made him into a sexton who got fired because he couldn’t write his name. Then he got into business and became a multimillionaire. At the bank they found out he couldn’t even write his own signature, and somebody said, “Just think what you could have been if you’d been able to read and write!” And he said, “Yeah, a church sexton.” It’s an old Jewish folk tale, and it probably applies to Groucho. He’s a self-educated man. He reads everything, or he did.
I
He still does.
JULIUS EPSTEIN
He’s well-read. Knows everything that’s going on politically, intellectually—everything. You know, civilians are afraid of him. Always have been. He never had much respect for anyone who wasn’t professional. And most of his friends, I think, were writers. I remember when he wrote his book, he kept saying, “My God, my respect has increased so much! Now I know how difficult it is to put some words on paper.”
I
He told me he didn’t find writing books difficult.
JULIUS EPSTEIN
Well, he didn’t say it at the time.
I
Do you have any idea what you’d call a book about Groucho?
JULIUS EPSTEIN
I don’t know. Actually, I’m terrible about titles, even for my own pictures. How about No Relation to Karl? As a matter of fact, Groucho was very proud of his German background. His parents didn’t speak Yiddish, they spoke German. And he married three gentile girls, Ruth, Kay, and Eden. I think the most vivacious of the group was Kay. Eden is a very good artist. She’s quite good. I don’t think there was anything particularly outstanding about any of his wives—no one really forceful character. You couldn’t be married to Groucho and be a very forceful character. Erin is different from any of the wives. Quite a demarcation line, Erin. Groucho’s still a strong character.
I remember the concert appearance in Columbus, Ohio. I’ve never heard such laughter from an audience in my life. Every time he came onstage there was another standing ovation. You know, I’ve heard a lot of laughter in my time—on the stage, in the theatre, everywhere—but I’ve never heard such laughter as Groucho got at that concert. I know the title’s already been used, but it really applies to Groucho’s style: Nothing Sacred.
WOODY ALLEN
Woody Allen interviewed Groucho for me on a cold February afternoon in New York City during 1973. Groucho was staying at the Pierre Hotel, noted for the protective shelter it provides its guests. Informally attired in jeans, an old sweater, saddle shoes, a pull-down “disguise” hat, and his Play-It-Again-Sam coat when he arrived in the lobby, Woody was delayed by a wary reception clerk until it could be determined for certain that Mr. Marx really was expecting him.
Informed that Woody was on his way up, Groucho exclaimed, “I’m crazy about him!” When Woody entered the suite, Groucho’s first words were, “Here’s a funny man.” Paradoxically, Woody Allen was one of the few people seeing Groucho who never tried to be funny. On this particular occasion, Woody’s demeanor was further sobered by the task of interviewing Groucho, which he approached with the utmost seriousness.
To Groucho, Woody Allen was “a very funny man”—no faint praise from one given to cosmic understatement. To this, a totally serious Groucho would add, “He’s a genius.”
Groucho best summed up the relationship between him and Woody: “I think he’s great, and he thinks I’m great. So we get along fine.”
GROUCHO
It must be hot out today. Nobody’s wearing a hat.
WOODY ALLEN
Yeah, it’s freezing. It is seventeen degrees or something.
GROUCHO
But if you’re not wearing a hat, it isn’t cold.
WOODY ALLEN
That’s how you judge?
GROUCHO
You can wear a little something else. I’m wearing heavy underwear. (Groucho reveals his undershirt, which reads, “Tell ’Em Groucho Sent You”) If you were my age you’d wear it too. And you’d wear a hat.
WOODY ALLEN
You’re supposed to get colder as you get older.
GROUCHO
You’re damn right. Last time I saw Chaplin, all he said was, “Stay warm. Stay warm.”
WOODY ALLEN
What year did he tell you this?
GROUCHO
When he got the Academy Award. He came to California. We were having lunch, and as he started to leave, he put his arm around my shoulder and said, “Groucho, stay warm.” Then I didn’t know what he meant, but I do now. So, when you get older, you should wear warmer clothes. And a hat.
WOODY ALLEN
I see.
GROUCHO
He told me once, “I wish I could talk on the screen the way you do.” Chaplin was great but he doesn’t work anymore. He did one turkey that was really something. Countess from Hong Kong. That was one of the worst pictures I ever saw. Marlon Brando was in it. I want to see the new Brando picture [Last Tango in Paris] because they say you can pick up a lot of stuff from it.
WOODY ALLEN
Have you ever seen any pornographic movies?
GROUCHO
No, I’m not interested. I’ve seen naked girls.
WOODY ALLEN
Did you do a concert after Carnegie Hall?
GROUCHO
Yes. I played in Los Angeles, and I played in San Francisco for Bill Graham. Frisco is an exciting city, you know.
WOODY ALLEN
Yeah. And it’s so small, but it’s more exciting than Los Angeles.
GROUCHO
I remember when we first came to Los Angeles from New York. There was no such thing as Beverly Hills then.
WOODY ALLEN
Did you like it better?
GROUCHO
Much better. All you could smell in those days was orange blossoms and lemon blossoms. Chico said that in California the flowers don’t smell, but the women do. Well, he should have known.
WOODY ALLEN
What’s the name of the studio near the airport?
GROUCHO
M-G-M. We shot five pictures at M-G-M—two of them with Thalberg. He was the best.
WOODY ALLEN
I know, I’ve heard you say that. I always hear very conflicting stories about Thalberg. I know you were crazy about him.
GROUCHO
He was the master. The first picture he did with us was A Night at the Opera. We started another one, A Day at the Races, and he died in the middle of it. He was younger than I was when he died. That was in 1936. Now it’s 1974 and I’m still alive.
WOODY ALLEN
>
How do we know that?
GROUCHO
I can tell when I get up in the morning. If I don’t get up, that means I’m dead.
WOODY ALLEN
Do you still have that bed that…
GROUCHO
Yes! And if you ever want to spend the night with me, well, don’t be reluctant about it.
WOODY ALLEN
It was the first time I ever saw a bed that could buzz up your feet, your back, whatever you wanted. It was that switch under the mattress.
GROUCHO
I’ve got everything on remote control—the television, the lights, everything—so I can sit in bed for days without ever having to get up.
WOODY ALLEN
So who are your friends?
GROUCHO
I have no friends.
WOODY ALLEN
Well, who have you been seeing lately?
GROUCHO
I see Nunnally Johnson, who I think is one of the great writers in Hollywood. And I see George Seaton. I don’t know if you know who he is.
WOODY ALLEN
I do. I don’t know him personally but I know who he is.
GROUCHO
Nice guy. And talented. And I see Arthur Sheekman.
WOODY ALLEN
Harry Ruby?
GROUCHO
Yes. I have eight or ten friends.
WOODY ALLEN
So you just kind of relax during the daytime, and you see them and play cards…
GROUCHO
I don’t play cards.
WOODY ALLEN
You don’t play cards. What do you do?
GROUCHO
I read a lot. Junk.
WOODY ALLEN
Un-huh. You don’t get bored reading after two hours?
GROUCHO
No. I just look at some more junk.
WOODY ALLEN
Do you see any movies or watch TV?
GROUCHO
I watch Sanford and Son, All in the Family, Maude, and a couple more programs. Do you like the two schwartzers?
WOODY ALLEN
I’ve only seen Sanford and Son very, very briefly.
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