“When were Satan and his demons cast out of Heaven?” asked Jobran.
“In 1914, when the Lord Jehovah enthroned his Christ as associate king. He did not return in a bodily form that could be seen by human eyes, but his presence was only discernible by his faithful followers. Since 1914, Jesus has been invisibly ruling as king of Jehovah’s heavenly government,” Walter said. “But since Jesus was enthroned in 1914, there is also a small number of people—who have lived from the time of the apostles onward—who are raised from the dead immediately after they die, and who are now ruling with Jesus in Heaven. From there, they communicate heavenly truths to the leaders of our organization.”
Jobran nodded, and said, “I knew that you believed that there was something special about the year 1914—other than it being the beginning of the First World War—but I didn’t know what it was. How was this date determined?”
Walter said, “1914 was determined based on the fourth chapter of the book of Daniel, where ‘seven times’ in verses 16 and 25 refers to the length of the ‘Times of the Gentiles,’ from the time of Jerusalem’s destruction in 607 B.C. to the year 1914. You compute this by multiplying 7 years times the Jewish lunar year of 360 days, to give you 2,520 days. Since a ‘day’ is often used to refer to a ‘year’ in the Bible—Numbers 14:34, and Ezekiel 4:6, for example—this gives us 2,520 years, which brings you to exactly the year 1914!” He had a triumphant look on his face, then added as an afterthought, “There was no year ‘zero,’ of course.”
Excitement in his voice, Lamonte said, “And the best part is, our organization realized the significance of the year 1914, from the application of several specific interrelated Bible prophecies, long before it occurred! As early as 1880, our publications identified the year 1914 as the year that the ‘Day of Wrath’ would begin.”
“I’ll take your word for it, since I don’t have access to any original 19th century copies of your publications,” Jobran said. “You seem to have a very exact chronology for all these events.”
Lamonte replied enthusiastically, “That’s only a small part of it! One of our recent publications, Pay Attention To Daniel’s Prophecy! gives a very detailed history of world events predicted in the book of Daniel, including persecutions of Jehovah’s servants from 1914 and later. For example, the ‘seventy weeks’ mentioned in Daniel 9:24-27 were seventy weeks of years, or 490 years, and extended from the time that the command went forth to restore and rebuild Jerusalem in 455 BCE until 36 CE, when Peter preached to the devout man Cornelius and other Gentiles in Acts 10.”
“Since you take such a literal interpretation of chronology in the Bible, I presume that you believe that the world is only a few thousand years old?”
Walter shook his head, and said, “While Biblical chronologies enable us to reliably date Adam’s creation to the year 4,026 BCE, the length of each of the creative periods in Genesis—and thus the age of the heavens, and the earth itself— is not specified in the Bible, and could certainly represent millions or even billions of years.”
“Getting back to these people you said are raised immediately after their death; how are they chosen?” Jobran asked.
Walter said, “Of all the people who have lived on Earth, we believe that exactly 144,000—the ‘congregation of the living God’ (1 Tim 3:15)—are destined for eternal life in heaven. They include such people as the apostles, of course. These 144,000 are the ‘generation’ that will have witnessed all the events of the Last Days from the time that Jesus Christ began to rule. For example, Armageddon— the final righteous war fought by Jehovah—will certainly be witnessed by some people who were living in 1914.”
Jobran shook his head incredulously. “But aren’t almost all of the people who were living in 1914 now dead?”
Lamonte replied calmly, “No; there are millions of people still alive who remember 1914. And there is actually a small remnant—a few thousand men and women—of the 144,000 that are still living.”
Walter added, “Remember that some of them might have been born only shortly before 1914, so they are only in their late 80s or 90s now. But the fact that their numbers are steadily decreasing is one reason we know for certain that the time for this world system is drawing to an end very soon, since Jesus said that they were the ‘generation that will not pass away until all things are fulfilled.’ (Mt 24:34)”
Jobran frowned a moment, locating a passage in his Bible, before he said, “Doesn’t Revelation 14:4 say that the 144,000 are all virgins, who have not been ‘defiled with women,’ and therefore they would all have to be men?”
“They are spiritual virgins,” Walter answered immediately. “Who follow Jehovah, and are without blemish.”
Jobran looks at them in amazement. “So you’re saying that only 144,000 people achieve salvation? But I thought there were millions of Jehovah’s Witnesses worldwide? Are the two of you part of this 144,000?”
Walter and Lamonte smiled at each other, and Walter said, “No, not at all. The heavenly class of 144,000 was filled early in the 20th century. The other millions of faithful followers of Jehovah on earth today are the ‘great crowd’ of Revelation Chapter 7, who will dwell in paradise here on the Earth.”
“That is the hope that we have: To live in Paradise here on the Earth!” Lamonte said, his voice filled with genuine enthusiasm. “Even in the Last Days, when Jehovah God cleans out all wickedness from the earth, he will not destroy the righteous along with the wicked. (Psalm 37:10, 11; 145:20) Those of us that are remaining on the Earth will survive the great tribulation that destroys this present wicked world (Revelation 7:9-14), and a ‘great crowd’ of people ‘out of all nations and tribes and peoples and tongues’—who will not be resurrected to heaven—will also be on hand to welcome back the dead.”
Jobran nodded, and said, “So this is when you believe the majority of the dead will be raised?”
Walter replied, “Yes! Jesus Christ promised that all those in Jehovah’s memory will be resurrected, or brought back to life. First among them will, of course, be those who have pursued a righteous course on earth as Jehovah’s servants—that is, the 144,000 who will be resurrected to life in the heavens, which is referred to in Revelation 20:5-6 as the ‘first resurrection.’ Many of these were not resurrected immediately after their deaths, but were awaiting the time for the heavenly resurrection to begin during the ‘last trumpet’ mentioned in 1 Corinthians 15:51.”
“But the second resurrection in Acts 24:15 will include both the righteous and the unrighteous, including those who have not had an opportunity to know the truth about God,” Lamonte added. “However, people like Judas Iscariot will not be resurrected, nor will people like those from Sodom and Gomorrah (Jude 6, 7; 2 Pet 2:4-10), nor will people who have sinned against the holy spirit.”
“Incidentally,” Walter said, as an aside, “Contrary to what most of Christendom now teaches, the holy spirit is not a person, but is simply God’s spirit, his active force. The so-called ‘unforgivable sin’ of Matthew 12:31-32 is willful and deliberate opposition to the operation of God’s spirit. Such persons will not be resurrected.”
“That is one of the many differences between us, and the Seventh-Day Adventists,” Lamonte interjected. “We know that not everyone will be resurrected.”
Jobran asked, “Will people once resurrected then be judged? Do you believe in a Judgment Day?”
“Yes; but it will not be a literal 24-hour day,” Walter declared. “Judgment Day will actually be exactly 1,000 years long.”
Jobran looked surprised, and said, “So you believe in a literal Millennium? What is its purpose?”
Walter replied, “Sin and death will be completely removed from those that inhabit the earth, and there will no longer be a need for Jesus to provide propitiation for our sins—the earth will be returned to the status it had when Adam and Eve were in Eden. Jesus and the 144,000 serving with him w
ill train and educate the resurrected ones in righteousness. Everyone on earth will be fully and directly responsible for their actions before Jehovah as the Supreme Judge.”
Lamonte beamed, and said, “This is the truth that stirred my spirit the most when I first heard it. As I’m sure you know, billions of people have died without having had a true chance to show whether or not they would comply with Jehovah’s righteous standards: maybe they lived in a country where they didn’t know about Jehovah’s requirements, or perhaps they were led astray by Satan— such people will also be resurrected! That is what Acts 24:15 says, that there will be a resurrection of both the righteous, and the unrighteous. And since at death we are released from any sins we committed during our lifetimes (Rom 6:7), this means that we will be judged on the basis of what we do during the 1000-year Judgment Day, not on the basis of what we did before we died!” With genuine feeling, he added, “This means that even loved ones who died without acknowledging the truth of Jehovah’s law, will have a fair chance to demonstrate that they are willing to live under his righteous standards. If you have, as I do, family members and friends who have died without acknowledging Jehovah’s truth, this means that we can have genuine hope for their salvation!”
“Let me see if I understand this,” Jobran said. “My wife passed away last year. In your understanding, my wife—who was not a Jehovah’s Witness—is presently in a state of non-existence; but she will be resurrected, and be part of this 1,000year system, correct?”
“Absolutely,” replied Walter firmly. As an afterthought, he added, “Well…assuming that she didn’t sin against God’s spirit, of course.”
“I don’t think she did,” said Jobran, to answer Walter’s question. “So her condition of salvation was not ‘fixed’ unalterably at her time of death, but she would have a ‘second chance,’ so to speak, according to your doctrines?”
“She will have a chance to live according to Jehovah’s truths, not ‘our’ doctrines,” replied Lamonte, primly. “But think of it: All of the billions of people that have lived on earth haven’t had fair chances in life; we come from unequal situations, and live in a world in which we are tested and tempted constantly by Satan. I’m raising my two daughters in Jehovah’s truths, but others are not so fortunate.” Looking at Jobran with genuine sorrow in his eyes, he added, “As I’ve said, there are even some of the members of my own family who have rejected the truths of Jehovah in their lifetimes. Yet in the paradise on earth, we will be reunited with loved ones, free from want, and able to live in peace under Jehovah’s righteous rule! So finally, there will be a just and equitable way of determining who is, and who is not, willing to live according to Jehovah’s righteous conditions!”
“Sort of like this picture in your magazine, right?” Jobran asked, holding up the copy of the Watchtower they had given him, opened to a page showing happy families looking as if they were headed to a picnic with other families. Both Lamonte and Walter nodded, smiling.
“Of course, it will be easier for some persons to practice righteousness during the 1,000 years than for others,” Walter said, seriously. “Those who are obeying Jehovah’s laws now, and living a godly lifestyle, will have a great advantage over those that are now living wicked lives. That is why it is so crucial for us to take advantage of the time that we have here, and learn to follow Jehovah’s commandments.”
“Not to throw cold water over your optimistic picture,” Jobran said, “But what about the passage that says, ‘It is given to men once to die, and after that the judgment’?” (Heb 9:27)
“Men do die only once, and after that they are judged,” explained Walter, patiently, “And they go either to Hades/Sheol, or—if they are unworthy of resurrection—to Gehenna. But there is also what the Revelation of John calls the ‘second death’ (Ch 20:14), which is eternal annihilation. At the end of the Judgment period, Satan and his demons, as well as those who do not faithfully serve Jehovah, will be destroyed, and this will be an eternal death. And then, death itself will finally come to an end, as it says in Revelation 20:13, and 21:4.”
Happily, Lamonte said, “So you and your former wife can be reunited here on Earth, and you will have the opportunity to serve Jehovah in the earthly paradise. If you serve him faithfully, you will receive the resurrection of life at the end of the 1,000-year Judgment period, and be able to live forever here on earth.”
“That would be welcome news,” said Jobran, “But why do you refer to her as my ‘former’ wife? Won’t she still be my wife after the resurrection? I thought you said that we would be reunited with loved ones?”
Walter seemed to give a meaningful glance to Lamonte, then said, “Certainly, we will be reunited with our loved ones, such as family and friends,” choosing his words carefully. “However, you should be aware that the Bible teaches in Romans 7:2-3 that death dissolves a marriage. This is also what Jesus taught in Luke 20:34-35.”
“I see,” said Jobran, suddenly silent. (Walter and Lamonte looked at each other, as if to say, “What did we say wrong?”)
Nervously, Walter added, “At the end of the 1,000 years, Jesus will present a perfected human race to his Father Jehovah. It has not been revealed to us what kind of service to Jehovah will be rendered by Jesus and the 144,000 after that, but it will certainly go on for all eternity. The rest of us will, as that book you read put it, ‘Live Forever in Paradise on Earth.’” Jobran said nothing, and suddenly seemed bored.
Glancing at his watch, Walter said, “Mr. Winter, this has been a very interesting conversation—far more in-depth than most of our first-time conversations with people.”
“Most definitely,” seconded Lamonte.
“We can tell that you are a true student of the Bible, and are genuinely interested to learn more about its truths,” Walter said. “How would you like us to come by once a week, to begin a systematic study of the Holy Scriptures with you?”
“There’s no charge for the lessons,” Lamonte said, helpfully.
Jobran shook his head firmly, and replied, “Well, this conversation has been very enlightening—I had misunderstood a lot of your teachings just from reading your older books—and while I thank you for the offer, I don’t think I’m interested.” Both Walter and Lamonte looked crestfallen.
“But why not?” asked Lamonte plaintively. “Haven’t we answered all of your questions, using only the Bible?”
“Well…sort of,” said Jobran, with very little conviction in his voice. He thought for a moment, then said, “Your teachings are very different from most other traditional Christian groups—which doesn’t necessarily mean that they’re wrong, but it seems kind of curious to me that Jehovah would let the truths you teach disappear from the world for 1900 years, if they were true. I think I remember reading suggestions in your literature that certain groups, such as the Waldenses, the Lollards, and the Hutterites were preserving certain of your doctrines throughout the centuries, but not even these groups taught anything close to most of what you have just presented to me.” Warming to the subject, he added, “You say that your teachings are based on the Bible, but it’s far from clear to me what your basis is for judging some things to be literal, and some figurative: You say that ‘Hellfire’ is symbolic, but the 144,000 is literal; the ‘Judgment Day’ is not a literal day, yet the 1,000 year period is literal; the ‘days’ of Daniel are exact, but the ‘days’ of Genesis are not. The return of Jesus to the earth was invisible, despite the fact that Revelation 1:7 says that ‘every eye shall see him.’ Your whole chronological interpretation hinges on the year 1914—which probably seemed reasonable in your early history—but 1914 seems less and less important as time goes on, and as the few people still alive from those days get older. In sort, the philosophical basis for some of these interpretations of the Bible seems doubtful to me.”
With a hurt expression, Lamonte said stiffly, “We are led by godly men, serving in our Brooklyn headq
uarters office.”
“Well, I don’t really have the time or inclination to look into their background and history, but I doubt that they are without faults. Wasn’t one of the members of your Governing Body—Raymond Franz, who was a nephew of your late president Frederick Franz—excommunicated or disfellowshipped for doctrinal disagreements, according to an article in Time magazine?”
Ignoring this statement, Walter stated flatly, “We are the only group that is teaching solely from the Bible.”
Jobran shook his head, and replied, “Actually, I think that a lot of conservative Protestant groups teach their doctrines using the Bible only.” Thinking for a moment, Jobran continued, “And quite frankly, to me, your exclusive reliance on the Bible is more a point of weakness, than a point of strength. The more I study, the more I am convinced that you cannot make a single, coherent theology out of the Bible—whether you are a Calvinist, an Evangelical, or a Jehovah’s Witness. To try and do so becomes a matter of deciding which ‘difficult’ passages you want to have explained, and which other ones you are willing to leave as either ‘questionable’; which passages you explain as being ‘symbolic,’ and which ones you want to take literally.”
Lamonte bristled, and said, “We are the only ones who obey Jehovah in going from door-to-door throughout all the world, proclaiming his message.”
“Actually, a lot of evangelical churches and groups also do door-to-door witnessing; for example, after I visited a local Baptist church recently, I had two different groups from their ‘Visitation Committee’ that came to see me afterwards. And of course, the Mormons also go door-to-door.” Seeing their disappointed expressions, Jobran added, “But I do respect the fact that you ‘practice what you preach’ by going door-to-door, exposing yourselves to ridicule and scorn.” Smiling slightly, he added, “If all evangelical Christians truly believed what they claim to believe about Hell—namely, that it is a place of fiery torment, for all of eternity—you would think they all would go out witnessing as often as possible!” Walter and Lamonte laughed, and Jobran went on.
Beyond Heaven and Earth Page 29
