The best definition for these kinds of. . . of this kind of deviant behavior is an operational definition. In other words, the behavior of the individual in his perceived mental state defines what he is, not some textbook label. We can extract a lot of things from that in general lives and hopefully avoid, uh, hopefully gain some insight so it’s possible to help others avoid engaging in this type of deviant behavior in the future. Admittedly, it’s only a very. . . a shotgun approach, a generalized application.
HA: You think that if somebody like this picks up this book – and we’ve been able to explain it properly – it might save somebody from becoming like this? Is that what you’re saying?
TB: It’s possible, but I. . . I don’t think reading the book – I don’t care how much insight we could give into the type of person who is capable of committing these kinds of crimes; it doesn’t matter how accurately we present it – if we were able to present everything with a high degree of accuracy and clarity, uh, the mere appreciation for the, uh, mental state of this kind of individual alone is not going to change things. The problems are societal in nature.
They go beyond the individual. They go beyond any individual. The things that can be done to prevent persons from engaging in homicidal behavior on a massive scale are things which society has to correct on a massive scale. Not to say that the individual is totally not responsible for that type of behavior, but I doubt you could show a book like this to a – if you could find one – a budding mass murderer, and it would change him. (He is not susceptible to) a rational analysis of his problem.
HA: That’s the key right there, isn’t it?
TB: However, if society were able to restrict or otherwise eliminate the environmental stimuli that provoke or otherwise create this kind of individual, or the mores that contribute to his behavior, then it would go a long way toward eliminating that kind of behavior.
October 11
Bundy has had several months to reflect on two proposals. One is that he consider confessing everything, in detail, in the first person, to the police. If he is ready to do so, Hugh has offered to act as an intermediary with Florida governor Bob Graham, who could then decide for himself, privately, whether he wanted to make some sort of deal with Bundy or not.
The second idea, Ted’s, is that he write an account of the Chi Omega killings as an opening chapter for the book. We, of course, are delighted.
HA: Well, let’s see. . . where are my notes? Oh yes, you were going to think about a couple things. About how to get into that first chapter – maybe an outline or something.
TB: Yeah, well, I told you that I’d thought it out and, uh, when we’d been working on this stuff, and I was. . . uh, uh. . . I know the type of style that I’m interested in – that it has to be done in. . . and I found my old outline last night and sketched out, you know, tried to elaborate on it some more last night. Uh, it will take me a couple more days to get it done. I’m still uncomfortable with it, and, uh. . .
HA: Well, couldn’t you just briefly tell what it – I mean, an idea what you’re doing, what you’re working on? How you foresee it?
TB: Well, it’s in the. . . it’s not certainly. . . it’s not going to be a first-person account.
HA: I understand that.
TB: Uh, it would be a third-person narrative. . . uh, just basically dwelling on. . . well, uh, trying to give you a flavor for what I’m talking about. . . a touching on feelings. . . uh, feelings and sensations. . . as well as the down. . . the nitty-gritty aspects of the place involved. You know. . . you can come to say, the, uh, feelings this person had before, and what he was doing befo. . . in the hours, let’s say, preceding this.
HA: That’s great.
TB: And how these. . . how it unfolded. The feelings during the commission of the crime, per se. Uh, how he escaped, and, you know, how he eluded the police. And besides that, obviously the chronology of events. . . the more, uh – the interior feelings of this person, whether it be panic or drunkenness. . . or confusion.
HA: Well, that would be tremendous. And it might help understand this unusual hybrid. But you’re having some trouble?
TB: Well, I’m not. . . it’s not. . . sure, I’m having trouble. I have trouble writing letters to Carole. I mean, I’m not, uh. . . I don’t do that much writing. Writing is like anything; the more you do, the easier it gets. And I have a strong idea how I would like this to look, and no one else can write it but me. Uh, you know, uh, it’s very. . .
HA: Well, we won’t attempt to do anything on the Chi Omega situation then until you finish this for us because, like you said, you’re the one who has to do it – the only one who can do it. But maybe you’d like to talk it out for a while.
TB: Yeah, the problem is. . . it’s one of just phrasing, of sort of getting the feelings. . . of getting these ideas down into words. I suppose that exchange is not a problem of fleshing out the material. It’s a problem of properly. . . of having all the facts or finding an approach. I mean, I know the type of writing style I’d like to use (long pause). The kind of writing style that I’ve. . . that I’ve been using is sort of a surrealistic. . . because it gives a feeling sort of like a dream, a strange, surrealistic dream. . . uh, based on fact, of course.
The only thing I hate about this damn. . . damn Chi Omega case, and I hate. . . I don’t want to see the book, uh, the book should begin with it, but I don’t want to see the book take too much time with it because I still have appeals going, and probably will long after the book is out of print. I can’t jeopardize, uh, my. . . I’ll tell you what, Hugh: My mind is having a hard time communicating with my mouth these past few weeks. I want to describe this tumult, this surrealistic experience, but I also have my future to think about.
HA: The Chi Omega situation, while your suggestions and experiences would make it the highlight of the book, there’s a lot more to this story than Chi Omega. There must be twenty-five cases in the west that have no bearing on Chi Omega – except that you ended up there.
TB: Yeah. (He shuffles a sheaf of notes he brought in.) You want some hash? There’s a little bit left here.
HA: I never have. . .
TB (laughs): I brought my stash down here with me.
HA: You’d better blow that out.
TB: No, no. . . there’s not enough to get me. Well, well. . . that’s what I’m working on now. Oh yeah, you asked me to sign a note or something for you. What was that all about?
HA: Yeah, to your uncle Jack and grandfather Cowell. I’d like to visit with them.
TB: Well, that’s involved, uh. . . I can’t tell you what to do, but I can. . . I can tell you what I don’t want you to do – and you can follow that. I don’t want you to talk to my grandfather. He’s in his late seventies and they’ve shielded him from all this. I don’t know if. . .
HA: It’s not that important perhaps. It’s just that I want to do the best damn job possible. Why do you feel he couldn’t handle it?
TB: He’s an old man and they’ve done their best to keep all this away from him. And I hate to see something like this push him over the edge. And my uncle. I’m sure he. . . he’d be more than willing to talk to you.
In the case of my uncle, he has a career. . . and I hate to see him – I hate to see his name used.
HA: I don’t see any reason why his name should have to be used. That’s not the purpose. I just thought that you considered him a positive influence on you, you really admired him and felt a closeness for him.
TB: I admired him, yeah. I think you’d benefit from speaking with him – although he only knew me as, you know, as a child. I doubt if he could add much to – about my high-school days or my young-adult years.
HA: Well, on another point: We were talking about the situation with the governor. I’d like to make that approach the next time I’m in Florida, three or four weeks or so. They’re telling me I can’t get in here to see you for several days because the backlog has built up, so I really can’t afford to sit around here doing nothin
g for several days. I think it’s an honest backlog; the warden showed me a whole stack of applications.
I haven’t decided how to make the original approach. I don’t know how much to tell them. I’ll have to tell them that I don’t speak for you – that you have lawyers – but that if he would be willing to explore it, you might be able to clear up a bundle of cases. Of course, he could make it difficult for me to get with you after that. . . uh, just handle it himself. I don’t know. It’s chancy, but I think maybe it’s worth it.
TB: Yeah, but see, you’re going way out front there. I’m not saying. . . Think about what you’re doing. See, you’re an investigator, you’re not a lawyer. You don’t have any. . . you don’t represent me. He’s definitely going to ask his aides to check you out.
HA: I can pass the scrutiny, but I’d hate like hell to lose access to you – so maybe we had better wait a month or two, at least until we get into some more areas I must explore with you.
TB: I can hardly wait.
HA: Now, if you don’t want me to do it, hell, I won’t. But I just think there’s a chance there. I think we can build a case for the uniqueness of this situation; giving society a chance to study somebody who has a problem. You think about it. If you don’t want me to do it, I won’t do it.
TB: Well, I’m thinking. You have to think beyond that – and the mechanics of it.
HA: What does he (the governor) have to lose? The state is going to fight all your appeals, and it will cost hundreds of thousands of dollars or more; perhaps new trials. You might successfully fight ’em for six or eight more years.
For what? To kill somebody? When you put it in that light, why, you know. . . and he might be able to do something for society. I don’t know. Maybe it’s completely off the wall.
I’m trying to figure out. Maybe they’ll let me in again next week. I’ve got work to do in Washington and Utah, though. Damn, I need to be there, but what I’m really concerned about is getting that Chi Omega stuff moving, because it is so important.
TB: Well, I think you’re going to. . . whenever I’m finished with that, I think we’re going to have to go over it.
HA: Yeah.
TB: So whenever you can get back out here. . . and I’m not. . . I’ll send word through Carole.
HA: Okay. Will you just say something like your “project” is finished, or something of that sort? So nobody will understand what it is we’re talking about here. And I’ll try to come back the next week.
TB: I’ve been thinking about the book. I think it’s a dangerous trap for it to fall into the “True Detective” format of. . . you know. . . which is nicely exemplified by all three books that have come out – a dry sort of reportorial you know, quasireportorial. . . you know, “this is what happened.” I see this as more of a story. I mean, like we’re used to reading in fiction – only this is fiction with fact – which is much stranger than fiction. . . to use that cliché.
HA: Right.
TB: The scope of it certainly has. . . I mean, probably one of its most salient characteristics is the scope, which can be introduced in ways other than just locking it into a report. Think about how the story unfolded. The discoveries were made by people. The investigations were done by police officers. These things just didn’t happen. They happened as a result of people discovering and people doing things. And show how judges act and how attorneys and clients really relate or don’t relate to each other. There’s so much in the story other than just the facts – to give it dimension.
HA: Well, we’re going to have to get a hell of a lot more from you – about the feelings, the sensitivities. . . whatever reasoning goes on, no matter how convoluted, irrational, or bizarre.
TB: Yeah, I understand. . . but try to use a quasifictional kind of style, because your characters will have something to say. This is why you almost have to visualize what’s going on, what you’re writing about. The other books about me lack any depth at all. They are so stagnant.
So stilted, I mean. It’s abnormal. People don’t talk that way. Things don’t happen that way. And this story you have – on the one hand is no more or less interesting than the others, but you have a hell of a lot more information, you have a better writer, and you have the ultimate edge – and as a result, you should do well with it.
HA: What we hope to achieve, also, is the psychological view, you know, the overall picture of why and what happened. We don’t have. . . how it fit. . . what you’re going to describe in that first chapter. The sensations, the feelings. We’re dancing all around that. I hope we can get it down, legitimately.
TB: Yeah, and I think you can visualize the story, get a feeling for the characters and for the intricacies. . . of what happened – believable actions between people. I can help you make this something nobody will ever forget. Even though we know it’s fact, I visualize, for instance, the characters, places, and events in a work of fiction. Like Shogun, a recent television movie. I was startled at just how my visualization of the book, as I read it, corresponded with the television movie. I said, “This is just as I saw it!”
(The guard signals that there are only five minutes remaining.)
TB: Here’s this (handing over a magazine piece). This should give you some insight into how I relate to this place. It’s a very important article for me. And I suggest that you think about it, and there may be some quotable quotes in there about. . . to help you construct any portions of this book that might – that would deal with my prison life.
In my mind, this is probably the most important article I’ve read in years. It’s called “Mind over Matter.” There’s so much super stuff in here. I want this back. Please send it back to me.
HA: I’ll get it back to you.
TB: It talks about alpha and beta personalities and stuff like that. I’m trying to find the most (leafs through for a minute or two). . . Listen to this! I’m trying to find a statement or two that characterizes this article and here is one. It says: “Just as there is a cancer-prone personality, there’s apparently a personality that seems to be able to throw off cancer. Someone with high ego strength and high esteem, flexibility of thought, the ability to tolerate stress and what Simon calls social economy, that is, a healthy enjoyment of people, coupled with a capacity to be comfortably alone. I believe these things can be learned,” he says, “because I see people who initially have relatively few resources for dealing with the disease improving physically as their psychological profile changes. People can transform themselves or be transformed by disease. The threat of death can shock them into making changes they otherwise might never have risked.”
And I think that’s the. . . really the essence of this article – but there’s so much more to it.
HA: I’ll copy it and send it right back to you.
TB: It says here, if you get sick, it’s because you’ve been thinking screwy. . . and I can only say “amen” to that. Now, we’re not talking. . . we’re talking about disease, and I apply it in a much broader sense.
HA: You’re thinking of a sociopath or, at least, a person with deviant behavior.
TB: Yeah. If, in fact, a disease model is applicable to aberrant behavior, or abnormal mental processes – and I think it is, to a degree, especially as disease is presented in this article. Wait a minute. Here’s something else! They’re talking about a woman who had breast cancer and, it says, “She did not make herself sick, but her sickness was an expression of something more than the activity of a virus. And the problem she faces is to find a less physically compromising way,” – now listen to this – “a less physically compromising way to express her blocked needs.” Think about that. “To express her blocked needs,” or better yet, to change the situation for which those needs became blocked in the first place.
HA: (hurriedly, as the guard returns): Now, you never did figure out a way to write down a number, so I’ll know what I’m talking about in this case. You remember we talked about a number? Something you could simply write down and then grab an
d throw away. But I’d know.
TB: Oh, that. Oh, well. . .
HA: Did you figure out how to get it done for me?
TB: As a matter of fact, I, I, I. . . haven’t figured out how to do it, Hugh.
HA: I know you don’t think that’s very important.
TB: Well, no. . . it’s not that I don’t think. . . I’m sure it’s important to you. I’m just trying to. . . I’ll have that ready for you.
HA: Okay, have Carole contact me and I’ll be back in three or four days – when you’re ready, okay?
October 20
HA: I know this is hard for you to get back into because you’ve got things here that are your prime interests right now. But damnit, we’ve got to get this sonuvabitch moving.
You’ve suggested giving us something startling at the beginning. Something, you said, that’ll make ’em pay attention – about the Chi Omega thing. We agreed that’s the best way to start it. You were gonna try to write that. Did you ever do anything on that?
TB: I sketched out, uh, an outline. . . but I haven’t written it down, because, uh, the last time you were here. . . I haven’t done anything on it, uh, since that time. I, uh, oftentimes work on it, uh. I have been absent. . . my mind has just fallen out of that mood that we were in.
HA: I understand. . . but I’d like to get back on it. If you can. I sure need to, because I’ve been sittin’ around here playing semantics. We need to move this forward. Well, will you try to do that?
TB: Yeah.
HA: You know there’s a lawsuit by the Leach family against the school district?
TB: Uh huh, I’ve heard, yeah.
HA: I’ve always felt that Andy Anderson was wrong (about seeing Bundy kidnap Kim Leach from the school) and you said he was wrong. How do you feel about the testimony?
TB: Well, I don’t know. I knew he was wrong about me. That’s what I’m saying. You’re asking about how I feel about him testifying?
HA: Yeah.
TB: Well, I’ve. . . I’ve been privy to how publicity generates, uh, false eyewitness identification since Utah, and any number of people, from the Aspen case to any number of false sightings in Utah and Washington since my name has been in the paper, and, uh, simply. . . a person would see my face, uh, you know, on television or in a newspaper and with the attendant publicity, would begin to. . . Some people just begin to hallucinate or visualize all sorts of encounters – some of them to be helpful, some perhaps just because they wanted the attention. I don’t know. . . but I think that is Andy Anderson’s case, from the best I can tell. Over the course of being exposed to my picture and the publicity for eight months, or whatever it was before he came forward, he just, uh, he just convinced himself he had seen something.
Ted Bundy Page 19
