MANDELA: No, I had been banned from September, from December 1952. That was my first ban in terms of the Riotous Assemblies Act and that was for one year, and then on another occasion it was for two years. But in terms of the Suppression of Communism Act, I came to be banned and confined to Johannesburg for five years, and when the ban expired because it had not been possible for me to travel around, it was like a new chapter in my life and therefore I made it a point to see the country because I knew that the question of a ban and confinement to a particular area was something that was going to haunt me for the rest of my life as long as I was active politically. That really was the reason for the importance I attached to the trip.
13. CONVERSATION WITH RICHARD STENGEL
STENGEL: What was the International Club?
MANDELA:…The Johannesburg International Club was a club which made it possible for people of various national groups to meet…it was a place in town where people could meet and exchange views and receive visitors…and it served meals, there were games…debates, and so on. It was a place for social occasions. At one time there came an American, two American actors: Canada Lee…and this chap now, who is quite a top actor, Sidney Poitier. We entertained them there and it was a very interesting club; those days it was one of the few instances where you could have members of all national groups together.
STENGEL: And was it here in town? Where was it?
MANDELA: Yes, it was further down towards the west…
STENGEL: And you became secretary?
MANDELA: Yes, I became secretary.
STENGEL: There was also a fellow who – I believe he succeeded you as secretary, with whom you were friends – Gordon Goose.
MANDELA: Gordon Goose, yes, that’s right.
STENGEL: So you socialised with people.
MANDELA: Yes, an Englishman, who came from England, and a very religious man, married to a Jewish lady, Ursula. A blind lady, but very capable, very capable lady. She is now teaching; at least when I came out of jail I went to see them…One day Gordon was not going to be available at five o’clock to go and fetch his wife, so he asked me to [do it]. She was…working…a few blocks away from here in Commissioner Street. And I went there, I got hold of her. Now, because she was blind, she put her hand here [gestures], on the arm. And then I went out with her. The whites nearly killed me. Now she…was a beautiful woman…to see a black man holding a white lady like that? Oh, they almost killed me. But I can pretend…that I am brave, you know, and [that] I can beat the whole world, you see, so I just ignored them. And got into the car. [Later] when I was underground, I spent a lot of time with them. They were not very far from my hiding place and I used to visit them in the evening.
14. CONVERSATION WITH AHMED ‘KATHY’ KATHRADA ABOUT DR JAMES MOROKA,15 Who Wanted to Distance Himself from the Nineteen Other Accused, Including Mandela and Kathrada, in the 1952 Defiance Campaign Trial and Appointed his Own Lawyer16
Kathrada: Ah, then page 61–62 [of Long Walk to Freedom draft]: ‘I went to see Dr Moroka at his house in Thaba Nchu in the Orange Free State. At the outset of our meeting [I] suggested both of these courses of action to him. But he was not interested; he had a number of grievances that he wanted to air. Moroka could be quite haughty,’ etcetera.
MANDELA: Could be ‘quite haughty’?
KATHRADA: Haughty.
MANDELA: No, man…I don’t like the description of Moroka like that.
KATHRADA: Aha.
MANDELA:…In the first place, Moroka was never haughty. And I don’t like, in, a biography like this, you see, to make uncomplimentary remarks.
KATHRADA: Aha.
MANDELA:…I think we should have, we can say, ‘It was a disappointment to see that the leader of the African National Congress should want to disassociate himself from actions and policies which were adopted under his leadership.’…But I don’t want us to be going into the questions of him being haughty and betraying people.
KATHRADA: Aha.
MANDELA: I think we should avoid that…and…you know, his children, I wrote to them when I was in prison and they wrote back, you know, to say that for the first time a good word has been said about…
KATHRADA: About their father.
MANDELA: Their grandfather.
KATHRADA: Aha.
MANDELA: You see what we say about leaders, even though we may criticise them, it would be good, you see, to say that to compare him with [Yusuf] Dadoo17…[Walter] Sisulu18, you know, these are people produced by the movement…who were committed, you know, to the whole culture of collective leadership…Dr Moroka came from another school and he had these limitations, but put it in a dignified way.
KATHRADA: Aha.
MANDELA:…You see criticism must be dignified. We must be factual, we must be realistic, we must be honest, but at the same time, you know, within a certain frame because we are builders…
KATHRADA: Ja, ja.
MANDELA: When you said that a writer from the movement is not just recording, also is a builder, must contribute, you see, to the building of the organisation and the trust, you know, that should be invested in that organisation. I think you’ve said that…
15. FROM A CONVERSATION WITH RICHARD STENGEL ABOUT NON-VIOLENCE
The Chief [Albert Luthuli] was a passionate disciple of Mahatma Gandhi and he believed in non-violence as a Christian and as a principle…19 Many of us did not…because when you regard it as a principle you mean throughout, whatever the position is, you’ll stick to non-violence…We took up the attitude that we would stick to non-violence only insofar as the conditions permitted that. Once the conditions were against that we would automatically abandon non-violence and use the methods which were dictated by the conditions. That was our approach. Our approach was to empower the organisation to be effective in its leadership. And if the adoption of non-violence gave it that effectiveness, that efficiency, we would pursue non-violence. But if the condition shows that non-violence was not effective, we would use other means.
16. CONVERSATION WITH AHMED KATHRADA
KATHRADA: Did you read Gandhi too? Mandela: Oh yes. No, that’s true. No, that’s true.
KATHRADA: So, that’s true?
MANDELA: But, Nehru was really my hero.
KATHRADA:…This is the way it’s worded, page 62 [of Long Walk to Freedom draft]: ‘He felt some pangs at abandoning his Christian beliefs which had fortified his childhood, like St Peter three times denying Christ.’ Now, is it correct wording to say you ‘abandoned your Christian beliefs’?
MANDELA: No, never.
KATHRADA: It would be wrong, isn’t it?
MANDELA:…I say it’s absolutely untrue. I never abandoned my Christian beliefs.
KATHRADA: OK.
MANDELA: And I think it’s proper, you know, it could do a lot of harm.
KATHRADA: Exactly, ja.
MANDELA: Ja, could do a lot of harm.
17. CONVERSATION WITH RICHARD STENGEL
STENGEL: What was Ruth First like?
MANDELA: Ruth? Ruth – her death was a tragedy for South Africa because she was amongst the brightest stars in the country, in the proper sense of the word.20 I…[had] known Ruth from our university days. We were in the same university and she was progressive, and she was not the type of white who was progressive when she was with you in a room, or away from the public. If she met you in one of the corridors of the university or in the street, Ruth will stand and talk to you, very comfortable, in a very relaxed manner and she was brilliant. In any meeting where you sat with Ruth, there was just nothing but brilliance. And…she did not suffer fools, had no patience towards fools and she was energetic, systematic, hard-working and she would tax you on any type of job that you undertook and she would…make the maximum effort and to produce the best result. She was fearless, she could criticise anybody and she rubbed people, you know…in the wrong way at times. She was direct and outspoken. But at the same time she was very broad, just like her husband, Joe [Slovo], very broad. In tho
se days when [they] were young communists, and very radical, they had friends amongst the Liberals and amongst prominent businessmen, and her house was a crossroad of people of different political persuasions. That was a wonderful girl, I loved very much. I loved and respected [her] very much and I was very sorry when I heard from prison that she had passed away.
STENGEL: And their house was, as you say, a kind of centre.
MANDELA: Oh yes.
STENGEL: And would you go there for dinner…?
MANDELA: Oh very often, very often. I had a clash with her…in 1958, I appeared in a trial and…I lost the case, and some women were sent to jail, and she then criticised me in the way I handled the case. It was actually the criticism of somebody who was not conversant with the law. But it was over the telephone and I was hard-pressed because I was dealing, you see, with more than 2,000 women, trying to arrange defence [for] them. The whole day, you know, I’d be busy either actually defending them or arranging people to defend them. And…then I handled one case and I lost it and three women were sent to jail, although, of course we bailed them out. Then she, on the telephone, criticised the manner in which I had handled the case and I told her to go to hell. And then [laughs] immediately thereafter I realised, man, you see, this is a lady, and this is a very good comrade. However wrong she was, she believed in what she said. Then, at the end of the day, instead of going home, I went along with Winnie to her place and I found her with one of the lecturers…at university…I just came in, didn’t say anything, just grabbed her, embraced her and kissed her and walked out. Walked away. [laughs] Ja, they tried to say sit down and so on – I just walked away. Yes. But I’d made peace. And Joe was saying, ‘I told you Nelson would never have any grudges against you.’ I walked away. So we made up. I didn’t want any tension between us. Although I lost my temper I immediately realised that, no, I was unfair to her. She’s a very sincere comrade, she should be entitled to criticise the way I behaved in anything where I made a mistake. But we made it up. I really respected Ruth and when subsequently I went underground she was one of my contacts.
18. FROM A CONVERSATION WITH AHMED KATHRADA
Gee whiz. I think we should describe, you see, what banning means…you are just prevented from attending gatherings and confined to a magisterial district. That was the first time, you know, I was banned, under the Riotous Assemblies Act in December 1952…I was prohibited from attending public gatherings, and then I was confined to the magisterial district of Johannesburg. Now, it was a new experience in so far as I was concerned and the fact that I couldn’t go beyond Johannesburg was, of course, something that affected me a great deal. But there was no shunning by people because not everybody in the first place knew when he met you that you are a banned person. The only case in which I came across this was, there used to be a chap called Benjamin Joseph, an attorney, where Harry Mokoena worked. One day…I was coming down Fox Street and he was coming towards me and as I approached he says, [whispering] ‘Nelson, don’t talk to me. Please just pass. Don’t talk to me.’ That was the only case I know.
19. FROM HIS UNPUBLISHED AUTOBIOGRAPHICAL MANUSCRIPT WRITTEN IN PRISON
Confined to Johannesburg for a whole two years and with the pressure of both my legal and political work weighing heavily on me, I was suffocated from claustrophobia and anxious for a bit of fresh air. Fourteen years of crammed life in South Africa’s largest city had not killed the peasant in me and once again I was keen to see that ever beckoning open veld and the blue mountains, the green grass and bushes, the rolling hills, rich valleys, the rapid streams as they sped across the escarpment into the insatiable sea.
20. FROM HIS UNPUBLISHED AUTOBIOGRAPHICAL MANUSCRIPT WRITTEN IN PRISON
Duma Nokwe and others gathered at home one night to see me off.21 The young and promising barrister was in his usual jovial mood and as the evening lengthened he became more lucid and loquacious and kept us roaring with laughter. Occasionally he would burst into song – Russian and Chinese – at the same time gesticulating zealously as if conducting an imaginary choir. We sat up until about midnight and as they were leaving the house my daughter Makaziwe, then two years old, awoke and asked me if she could come along with me. Although I had been confined to Johannesburg, pressure of work had allowed me little time to spend with the family and I was well aware of the longing that would eat away their insides as I drifted further and further from them on my way to the Transkei. For some seconds a sense of guilt persecuted me and the excitement about the journey evaporated. I kissed her and put her to bed and, as she dozed away, I was off.
‘…Home is home even for those who aspire to serve wider interests and who have established their home of choice in distant regions. The happy lift that seized me as I drove into York Road, the main street, is beyond measure.’
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Excerpt from his unpublished autobiographical manuscript written in prison.
1. FROM HIS UNPUBLISHED AUTOBIOGRAPHICAL MANUSCRIPT WRITTEN IN PRISON
In the evening of the third I reached Mthatha, my home town.1 Home is home even for those who aspire to serve wider interests and who have established their home of choice in distant regions. The happy lift that seized me as I drove into York Road, the main street, is beyond measure. I had been away for the long stretch of 13 years and although there were no fatted calves and festooned trees to welcome me I felt…like the Returned Wanderer of Biblical fame and looked forward to seeing my mother and humble home, the numerous friends with whom I grew up, that enchanting veld and all the paraphernalia that make up unforgettable days of childhood…I thought I had left the Security Police behind on the Rand and had not suspected that they had spread their tentacles as far afield as my home town. I was still drinking coffee with two chiefs in my room when early next morning my hostess brought in a white gentleman. Without any courtesies he arrogantly asked, ‘Are you Nelson Mandela?’ ‘And who are you?’ I countered. He gave his rank as a detective sergeant and his name. I then asked, ‘May I see your warrant, please?’ He resented my impertinence much more than I detested his own arrogance but after some hesitation he produced his authority. I then told him that I was Nelson Mandela. He requested me to accompany him to the police station and I asked whether I was under arrest to which he replied that I was not. I refused to go. Whereupon he fired a succession of questions while at the same time noting my remarks in his notebook: when did I leave Johannesburg, what places had I visited, how long did I intend remaining in the Transkei, exactly where would I go on leaving the area, did I have a permit to enter the Transkei? I told him where I would stay, that the Transkei was my home and that I did not need a permit to enter it, but refused to answer the other questions. When he left the chiefs criticized me for my abruptness, stressing that I could have answered some of the questions without any risk to myself. I explained that I had done so because of the man’s discourtesy and haughtiness and that I had justly rewarded him for his arrogance. I don’t think I convinced them…Being together with my mother in her home filled me with boyish excitement. At the same time I could not avoid a sense of guilt as my mother was living all alone and 22 miles from the nearest doctor. My sisters and I were each living on their own. Despite the fact that her children tried in their own way to render her financially comfortable, she chose to live an austere life and saving what one child gave her to distribute to any of her other children who happened to be in need. On previous occasions I endeavoured to persuade her to come and live with me in Johannesburg, but she could never face the wrench of leaving the countryside where she had lived all her life…I have often wondered whether a person is justified in neglecting his own family to fight for opportunities for others. Can there be anything more important than looking after your mother approaching the age of 60, building her a dream house, giving her good food, nice clothing and all one’s love? Is politics in such cases not a mere excuse to shirk one’s responsibilities? It is not easy to
live with a conscience that raises such questions from time to time. Often I am able to persuade myself that I have done my best at all times to bring a measure of ease and comfort into my mother’s life. Even when at times I am plagued with an uneasy conscience I have to acknowledge that my whole-hearted commitment to the liberation of our people gives meaning to life and yields for me a sense of national pride and real joy. This feeling has been multiplied a hundred times by the knowledge that right up to her last letter she wrote me shortly before her death, my mother encouraged me in my beliefs and in fighting for them.
2. CONVERSATION WITH RICHARD STENGEL
MANDELA: By the way, when I was driving…driving out from Port Elizabeth, it was early in the morning, about ten. It was a hot day and as I was driving – it was quite a bushy area, a little wild area soon after leaving Port Elizabeth – I suddenly come across a snake crossing the road…It was already twisting, you see, because of the heat underneath – he couldn’t bear the heat. And it was twisting but it was too close for me to do anything else, so I, what-you-call, [ran] over it. My heart was sore, you know? Because it jumped up, you know, as it was dying, you see. And I couldn’t do anything; I just didn’t see it, man. Yes, poor chap. And there was no reason why I should kill it you know? It was no threat to me, and left me with a very sad feeling.
STENGEL: The snake incident which you mention in the memoirs, were you also superstitious about running over a snake?
MANDELA: No, no, no.
STENGEL: That it was bad luck or a bad omen?
MANDELA: Oh no, no, no. I was not superstitious at all. But just to kill an animal, an innocent reptile, that was what worried me. And especially seeing it through the rear-view mirror, struggling, you know, to be alive. You know, it was a deplorable act on my part. But that was a beautiful area at the time…from Port Elizabeth to Humansdorp. You went through forest, you know, thick forest and where it was absolutely quite still, except…the noise of the birds and so on, but very still. Beautiful area! And…then wild, you see. Before I got to Knysna, I came across a baboon which crossed the road and stood behind a tree and kept on peeping at me, you know? And I liked… such incidents…Ja, Knysna…I sincerely thought that if God came back to earth he would settle there, you know?
Conversations with Myself Page 5
