3. FROM A CONVERSATION WITH RICHARD STENGEL
I addressed that meeting of the Ministers’ Interdenominational Society of the Western Cape…It’s difficult now to remember the exact thing, but what I was saying was to stress the role of the church in the struggle and to say, that just as the Afrikaners use the pulpit in order to propagate their views, our priests should do exactly the same. And then there was a chap who prayed, Reverend Japhta, who made a very rather remarkable prayer and [he] said, ‘God, we have been praying [to] you, pleading with you, asking you to liberate us. Now we are instructing you to liberate us.’ Something along those lines, and I thought that was very significant.
4. FROM HIS UNPUBLISHED AUTOBIOGRAPHICAL MANUSCRIPT WRITTEN IN PRISON
Although I was now fully committed and had gained some idea of the hazards that accompanied the life of a freedom fighter, I had not seen any major political campaign by blacks and had not even begun giving serious attention to the question of methods. The sacrifices I was called on to make so far went no further than being absent from the family during weekends mainly, returning home late, travelling to address meetings and condemning government policy.
5. FROM HIS UNPUBLISHED AUTOBIOGRAPHICAL MANUSCRIPT WRITTEN IN PRISON
At that time my eldest son, Madiba [Thembi], was five. One day he asked his mother where I lived. I used to return home late at night and leave early in the morning before he was awake. I missed him a great deal during those busy days. I love playing and chatting with children, giving them a bath, feeding and putting them to bed with a little story, and being away from the family has troubled me throughout my political life. I like relaxing at the house, reading quietly, taking in the sweet smell that comes from the pots, sitting around the table with the family and taking out my wife and children. When you can no longer enjoy these simple pleasures something valuable is taken away from your life and you feel it in your daily work.
6. CONVERSATION WITH RICHARD STENGEL
STENGEL: So let’s get to 1944, when you met Evelyn.2
MANDELA: Oh, I see, yes.
STENGEL:…You met her obviously through Walter [Sisulu] because she was Walter’s cousin.
MANDELA: Yes, quite.
STENGEL:…Can you tell me about the circumstances that you met her?
MANDELA: Well, I wouldn’t like to go into that matter. You know our people resent us talking about divorce, you know, and so on…I didn’t mind myself…I didn’t want to be presented in a way that omits the dark spots in my life, but I couldn’t convince them, including people like Walter Sisulu. I just couldn’t convince him on that question…because their view is that you are not only telling your life; we want you to be a model around which we are going to build our organisation. Now if I deal with Evelyn here, I will have to tell you why our marriage collapsed, because our marriage really collapsed because of differences in politics and I don’t want to [say] that now against a poor woman, you know? Who can’t write her own story and put her own point of view. Although she has been interviewed by people, you see, and she has really distorted what actually happened…And once I start dealing with her, I must give the proper story, the full story. I would like to leave that out.
7. CONVERSATION WITH AHMED KATHRADA
KATHRADA: Now this is about Evelyn.
MANDELA: Uhuh?
KATHRADA: Now that you have corrected already. ‘According to Evelyn, when Mandela complained that she was spoiling their son by giving him too much money he took her throat and the boy went to neighbours who came round and found scratches on her neck.’
MANDELA: Mmm!
KATHRADA: Not true?
MANDELA: That’s not true. But what I wonder is how I could have not noticed these things.
KATHRADA: You see you have corrected this other thing where ‘Evelyn became a dedicated Jehovah’s Witness and spent much time reading the Bible. Mandela objected that the Bible tamed people’s minds, that the whites had taken the Africans’ land and left them with the Bible.’ You have said, ‘Not true.’
MANDELA: Yes, quite.
KATHRADA: But further on, this thing about ‘taking her by the throat’.
MANDELA: No, definitely say ‘Not true’ for the whole thing.
KATHRADA: Oh, I see.
MANDELA: For the whole thing because there is no question of that, there’s no question of that. I am sure she would have taken me to the police if I had done a thing like that. You know what happened?
KATHRADA: Ah.
MANDELA: We were arguing.
KATHRADA: Ah.
MANDELA: Now she had prepared for this, unknown to me. You remember those stoves, old stoves?
KATHRADA: Aha.
MANDELA: Coal stoves? We had an iron.
KATHRADA: Ja, a poker?
MANDELA: That’s right, a poker.
KATHRADA: Ja.
MANDELA: So she had put this thing in the coal and it was red hot and as we were arguing she then pulled this thing out, you know, in order to, what-you-call, to burn my face. So I caught hold of her and twisted her arm, enough for me to take this thing out.
KATHRADA: The poker away.
MANDELA: That’s all.
8. CONVERSATION WITH AHMED KATHRADA ABOUT THE POTATO BOYCOTT3
KATHRADA: All right, page 30 [of Long Walk to Freedom draft], still the questions from the publisher. Ah, what you are saying here: ‘One of the most successful campaigns also occurred in 1959 and that was the Potato Boycott.’
MANDELA: Yes.
KATHRADA: ‘…It was well known that labour conditions on white farms in the Transvaal were grim but no one knew quite how grim they were until Henry Nxumalo, an intrepid reporter for the magazine posed as a worker himself and then wrote about it…’4 Now you are going on with a paragraph or two about the the the Potato Boycott. He is saying, ‘Were you involved in this in any personal way? If you were not, I’d be inclined to delete this material.’
MANDELA: Oh.
KATHRADA: That’s what he’s saying, although I would disagree with him because I think the Potato Boycott was such an important…
MANDELA: Oh yes, quite.
KATHRADA:…event for us.
MANDELA: Yes. I was…that was in 1959, hey?
KATHRADA: Somewhere there.
MANDELA: Yes, quite. Was it not [19]57?
KATHRADA: No, no…
MANDELA: I remember Lilian [Ngoyi] addressing a meeting with a potato and [s]he says, ‘Look, I will never eat a potato in my life.5 Look at this potato; it looks like a human being…’
KATHRADA: Aha.
MANDELA: And, ‘Because it was fertilised, you see, out of human flesh.’ Something like that. I think that was [19]57, but you may be right – it may have been [19]59…I remember OR [Oliver Tambo],6 [chuckles] when the boycott was [on], he bought fish and chips and started eating them. I think it was [Patrick] Mthembu who said, ‘Look at the leading official of the ANC [African National Congress], breaking the boycott.’
KATHRADA: [laughs]
MANDELA:…OR was not aware of it and he says, ‘Take this thing away! Take it away!’ But he had already eaten it! [laughs]
9. CONVERSATION WITH AHMED KATHRADA ABOUT ANDERSON KHUMANI GANYILE’S USE OF TRADITIONAL MEDICINE
MANDELA: Gee whiz, [that] fellow believes in witch doctors. You know, when we took him to Lesotho, I went to fetch him in White City, in Mofolo, and I warned him beforehand that ‘Look, I’ll come at this particular time to pick you up’ because I was in the Treason Trial. So I came very early in the morning, I think about seven o’clock, and he came out of a side room and said, ‘Oh yes’ and he went back. Man, I think he spent about thirty minutes and I got annoyed, you see, and I said, ‘No, just pull him out.’ He was busy having his medicine, washing himself. Gee whiz! And by the time he came out he was smelling, you know, like a what-you-call, a meer, a polecat. Smelling [of] all sorts of things, herbs and so on. I was annoyed with that boy.
KATHRADA: Ah.
MANDELA: He kept m
e for thirty minutes!
KATHRADA: While he was inyanga-ing himself.7
MANDELA: Ja.
10. CONVERSATION WITH AHMED KATHRADA ABOUT THE 1960 STATE OF EMERGENCY8
KATHRADA: Then, page 81 [of Long Walk to Freedom draft], you are saying, ‘After one has been in prison it is the small things that one appreciates – the feeling of being able to take a walk whenever one wants, to cross a road, to go into a shop and buy a newspaper, to speak or choose to remain silent – the simple act of being able to control one’s person. Free men do not always appreciate these things and one takes joy in them only after one has been in chains.’ Then, they [the publishers] are saying here, ‘Any way to turn this abstraction into a description of what you did that day that seemed so sweet? More on your reunion with your family.’…
MANDELA: No, except that day I went to town with the car and I got two traffic tickets for…
KATHRADA: Speeding?
MANDELA: Hmm?
KATHRADA: For speeding?
MANDELA: No, no, no, for wrong parking.
KATHRADA: Oh.
MANDELA: And so on. Then Winnie then told me, look, this is the last time I’m driving.
KATHRADA: Aha.
MANDELA: That’s all.
11. CONVERSATION WITH AHMED KATHRADA ABOUT WHETHER EVIDENCE INCRIMINATING HIM WAS REMOVED FROM LILIESLEAF FARM IN RIVONIA9
KATHRADA: Ja, well I remember I came to see you at a consultation in Pretoria, with Joe [Slovo].
MANDELA: Oh, I see.
KATHRADA: They at first said said no, but then Joe said, ‘No, this is my defence witness so we have to consult’ and we discussed it, and then you raised the question of your stuff at Rivonia and Joe said, ‘Don’t worry, everything is gone from there.’
MANDELA: [laughs] Ja, I know! I know!
KATHRADA: [laughs] Everything is gone.
MANDELA: Yes, I know.
[both laugh]
KATHRADA: And then nothing was gone. They found everything.
MANDELA: Yes.
12. CONVERSATION WITH AHMED KATHRADA ABOUT BEING UNDERGROUND
MANDELA: We can also say that very big people, very important people who were not known…to have identified themselves with the movement used to be generous and to support us. And we won’t deal with names, with specific names, but people were very generous, as long as they were sure that we would observe the element of confidentiality. Planning our visits meant that I would see the people, you know, in the infrastructure, to say, ‘Today I am going to attend a meeting in Fordsburg’, which is a real, a what-you-call, something that actually took [place].
KATHRADA: Ja.
MANDELA: Two cases, very striking cases, by the way, when I attended meetings in Fordsburg, and I saw [Ben] Turok and others on one occasion during the day and Maulvi [Cachalia] went to a family in Fordsburg.10
KATHRADA: In Vrededorp.
MANDELA: Vrededorp. That’s right.
KATHRADA: Ja.
MANDELA: And said, ‘Look, somebody is going to come and stay here tonight. Could you accommodate him?’ They agreed very enthusiastically because they respected Maulvi. Now, I was wearing an overall, and very often, you see, I didn’t comb my hair,11 and I went to this house, you know, just to be aware of the house (Maulvi gave me the address) and to tell them that I’d come back in the evening. I knocked and a lady came forward, opened the door, says, ‘Yes, what do you want?’ I said, ‘Well, Maulvi Cachalia has arranged that I should stay here’ and she says, ‘I have no room for you.’ Banged the door [laughs] because she saw this wild fellow you know?
13. FROM A CONVERSATION WITH RICHARD STENGEL ABOUT HIS ARREST ON 5 AUGUST 1962
At Howick, that’s right, a car – a Ford V8 – passed and immediately ordered us to stop. And they selected the spot very well because on the left-hand side there was a steep bank like this, [gestures] and I was sitting, you see, to the left, on the left side…I was very fit those days, and I could virtually climb any wall. And then I looked at the back, just at the rear-view mirror, [and] I saw there were two cars behind. Then I felt that, no, it would be ridiculous for me to try and escape; they’ll shoot me. And we stopped. So a fellow came – tall, slender fellow in private [plain clothes] – he came right to my side and he says, ‘I am Sergeant Vorster’ and took out his warrant…He was very correct in everything – very, very, very correct and courteous. And he says, ‘May I know who your name is?’ I said, ‘I am David Motsamayi.’ He says, ‘No, but aren’t you Nelson Mandela?’ I said, ‘I am David Motsamayi.’ He says, ‘Ag, you are Nelson Mandela. This is Cecil Williams.12 I am arresting you. And we’ll have to turn back and go to Pietermaritzburg.’ I said, ‘Very well.’ And he says, ‘…the Major will get into your car, at the back of your car. You can just drive back.’ So we turned back.
Now, I had a revolver which was unlicensed and I just took it out and put it in between the seats. There were seats – the driver’s seat and my seat – but they were separate seats, but linked, and there was a small space here, which you can hardly see, and I just pushed it in. And also I had a notebook, and I took it out and I pushed it in, whilst I was talking to this major [in] the back. And at one time I thought I could open the door fast and roll down, but I didn’t know how long, you know, this bank was and what was there. I was not familiar with the landscape. No, I thought that would be a gamble, and let me just go and think of a chance later. So we went to the police station and they locked me up.
14. CONVERSATION WITH AHMED KATHRADA ABOUT BEING ALLOWED TO VISIT HIS OFFICE DURING HIS 1960 STATE OF EMERGENCY DETENTION
KATHRADA: ‘And I would stay there all day and evening. I walked downstairs to the ground floor, to the café to buy incidentals and he [the policeman] turned his head aside on one or two occasions when Winnie came to see me. We had a kind of a gentleman’s code between us. I would not escape and thereby get him into trouble, while he would allow me a degree of freedom that I would not otherwise have [been] permitted.’ The question they [the publishers] are asking, ah: ‘Later you say you were quite willing to try to escape.’ ‘Was that a philosophical change or simply a matter of personal loyalty versus a principle?’
MANDELA: That’s a technical question, you know?
KATHRADA: Ah…
MANDELA: I mean, as a prisoner I would take any opportunity to escape, but when dealing with a particular individual whom you respected, you would not like to put into trouble. That was the position.
KATHRADA: Aha.
15. CONVERSATION WITH RICHARD STENGEL ABOUT THE RESORT TO ARMED STRUGGLE
MANDELA: There are stages when one in a position of authority has to go…public to commit the organisation. Because otherwise people are eloquent and you have an idea, and you have the gut feeling that this is a correct idea, but you deal with people, you know, who are very powerful, who can assemble facts and who can be systematic and so on. And they will sway everybody. Therefore, if you want to take an action and you are convinced that this is a correct action, you do so and confront that situation. It’s not a question of being [un] disciplined. You have to carefully choose the opportunity and make sure that history would be on your side.
STENGEL: I’d like to explain the whole process of how the decision to form MK [Umkhonto we Sizwe] was made.13 At the Rivonia Trial you explain it in a general way. You said at the end, the second half of 1960, you and some colleagues reached the conclusion that violence was going to be inevitable. How did this whole process happen? Did you talk first privately with people and then there was the decision of the Working Committee? Was there a build-up to the decision?
MANDELA: No, what actually happened was I discussed the matter with Comrade Walter [Sisulu]. We discussed it because when Comrade Walter was going overseas, in 1953, I then said to him, ‘When you reach the People’s Republic of China, you must tell them, ask them, that we want to start an armed struggle and get arms,’ and then I made that speech in Sophiatown. I was pulled up for this but I remained convinced that this was
the correct strategy for us.14 And then when I was underground I then discussed the matter with Comrade Walter and we decided to raise it at a meeting of the Working Committee. We raised the matter but, as I told you, I was dismissed very cheaply, because [Moses] Kotane – the secretary of the Party and of course a member of the Working Committee and the National Executive – his argument was the time had not come for that: ‘Because of the severe measures taken by the government you are unable to continue in the old way.15 The difficulties have paralysed you and you now want to talk a revolutionary language and talk about armed struggle, when in fact there is still room for the old method that we are using if we are imaginative and determined enough. You just want to expose people, you see, to massacres by the enemy. You have not even thought very carefully about this.’ So he dismissed me like that and he was quick to speak and everybody supported him. I discussed the matter with Walter afterwards…The opposition was so heavy that Walter did not even dare to say a word. [laughs] But he has always been a very diplomatic chap, you know, but reliable, you know, when you take a decision with him. Very reliable. And so we reviewed the matter, and he has always been resourceful, and he says, ‘No, call him alone; discuss it with him. I’ll arrange for him to come and see you’ because I was already underground. So Kotane came and we spent the whole day together. This time I was very frank and I said, ‘You are doing precisely what the Communist Party in Cuba did – they said the conditions for a revolution had not yet arrived. Following the old methods, you see, which were advocated by Stalin – how a revolutionary situation can be identified, that is, by Lenin and Stalin. Here we have to decide from our own situation. The situation in this country is that it is time for us to consider a revolution, an armed struggle, because people are already forming military units in order to start acts of violence. And if we don’t do so, they are going to continue. They haven’t got the resources, they haven’t got the experience, they haven’t got the political machinery to carry out that decision. The only organisation that can do so is the African National Congress which commands the masses of the people. And you must be creative and change your attitude because your attitude really is the attitude of a man who is leading a movement in the old way when we were legal, who is not considering leading now in terms of the illegal conditions under which we are operating.’ So I was able to be blunt in order to challenge him, you know…I was able to challenge him. So he says, ‘Well, I’m not going to promise anything, but raise it again.’ So I went and raised it and he said, ‘Well I’m still not convinced, but let’s give him a chance. Let him go and put these ideas to the Executive, with our support.’ So we then went down and everybody agreed. We went down to Durban at a meeting of the National Executive of the ANC. Then Chief [Albert Luthuli], Yengwa and others opposed this very strongly. 16 So we knew of course that we were going to get a position from the Chief, because he believed in non-violence as a principle, whereas we believed in it as a tactic, although we couldn’t say so to court…To the court, that is [during] the Treason Trial, we said we believe in non-violence as a principle, because if we had said [we believed in it] as a tactic it would give a loophole to the crown, to the state, to say that at any time, when it suited us, we would use violence, and that in fact, that is what we had been doing. So we avoided that, but only for that reason. We have always believed in non-violence as a tactic. Where the conditions demanded that we should use non-violence we would do so; where the conditions demanded that we should depart from non-violence we would do so. So, but we knew that Chief was…would oppose this, and he opposed it very well, but we persuaded him…
Conversations with Myself Page 6
