Conversations with Myself

by Nelson Mandela

  6. FROM A LETTER TO MRS D B ALEXANDER, DATED 1 MARCH 1976

  One of my favourite hobbies is to examine all the cards I’ve received during the previous year and only the other day, I was looking at the one you sent me last Dec[ember]. It contains only 4 printed words to which you added 3 in a clear and bold script. That economy in words is characteristic of all the seasonal messages I’ve received from you and yet they’re full of warmth and inspiration and each time they come I feel younger than kleinseun [grandson] Leo.

  7. FROM A LETTER TO ZAMILA AYOB, DATED 30 JUNE 1987

  I once wrote to Zami during the early seventies what I considered to be a romantic letter; from a man who adored and worshipped his beloved wife. In the course of that letter I remarked that Zeni and Zindzi had grown beautifully and that I found it a real pleasure to chat with them. My beloved wife was furious and, when I reached the last line of her letter, I felt that I was very fortunate to be so far from her physically. Otherwise I would have lost my jugular vein. It was as if I had committed treason. She reminded me: ‘I, not you, brought up these children whom you now prefer to me!’ I was simply stunned.

  8. FROM THE UNPUBLISHED SEQUEL TO HIS AUTOBIOGRAPHY

  My training and experience as a practicing lawyer in South Africa’s biggest city, Johannesburg, sensitized me at an early age in my political career to what was going on inside the corridors of power in our country. This early experience was reinforced during my imprisonment on Robben Island.

  At that time prison warders were by no means the best-educated section of the community. The majority was hostile to our aspirations and regarded every black prisoner as sub-human. They were intensely racist, cruel and crude in dealing with us.

  There were notable exceptions amongst them, who patiently warned their colleague[s] that in other parts of the world, liberation movements frequently won against their oppressors and became themselves rulers. These progressive warders urged that prisoners should be treated strictly according to regulations and well, so that in due course [if] they won and became [the] government they should in turn treat whites well.

  The ANC [African National Congress] has always stressed the principle that we were fighting not against whites as such, but against white supremacy, a policy that is fully reflected in the racial composition of the principal structures of the organisation and government nationally, provincially and [on] local levels.

  Not all my fellow prisoners had had the opportunity to be acquainted with the affairs of government departments at that time. Some of the most influential amongst us seriously doubted whether dialogue with the apartheid regime was a feasible option.

  9. CONVERSATION WITH RICHARD STENGEL ABOUT HIS PROMOTION TO A HIGHER GRADE IN PRISON4

  STENGEL: So why were you the first?

  MANDELA: Well, you know, it’s just a question of good relationships with the authorities…Although they fought with us, I kept a good relationship because I wanted to be able to go [to them]…to discuss a problem. Because I was worried by people, both in the main section – people you have no contact with – and in our group, in our section; and they worried me about all sorts of problems, some very serious, which had to be solved and quite apart, you know, from the general problems of policy…and practice…And, therefore, I kept a good relationship with them, even with Aucamp and of course the Commissioner General Steyn…But I fought them on questions of principle, and when they did something wrong, I fought them.

  10. FROM A CONVERSATION WITH RICHARD STENGEL ABOUT PRISON WARDERS

  I don’t want us to create the impression that all the warders were just animals, rogues, no. Right from the beginning, there were warders who felt that we should be treated correctly…Without boasting, you see, they normally came, especially during weekends and in the evenings, to talk to me. And…some of them were really good men. And expressed their views uncompromisingly about the treatment we were receiving. And, and we picked this up now, when we came to know the warders and the officers…that there was a serious argument amongst warders. Some saying, ‘We can’t afford to treat people like this. We must treat them decently. We must give them newspapers; we must give them radios.’ And the others say[ing], ‘No, if you do that, you are building up their morale. Don’t do that.’ They say, ‘Even so, they’ll still be on the Island.’ And so that argument was going on. Now to see…this division amongst warders, we decided, after some time, to go on…a go-slow strike…we used to take about a whole morning, loading one load…They tried everything and we would not budge. But there was a chap called Sergeant Opperman, he would call us together and say, ‘Gentlemen, it rained last night and the roads were washed away. I want lime so as to repair the roads. I want five loads today, lorry-loads. Can you help me?’ Now, the fact that the chap called us together and addressed us as gentlemen, would, you know, make us feel that we should help this man and we would fill those five lorries, you see, hardly in an hour’s time. And once he goes, we go back to [the] go-slow strike.

  Now…this chap was not only courteous, but when he was on duty in the kitchen, we would get our rations…In the kitchen there was a lot of smuggling. Taking our meat, our sugar and so on. And this Sergeant would make sure that we [got] our ration[s]. So we respected him. Now there were many warders with that approach. And so although we had serious difficulties, there were bright moments where some warders would treat you, you know, as human beings.

  11. CONVERSATION WITH RICHARD STENGEL

  STENGEL: Some of the warders participated in political discussions with you?

  MANDELA: Oh yes, yes. Oh quite a lot. Generally, you know, there were some sharp chaps and who were engaged in discussions. And as a result of those discussions, they became very friendly to us – very, very friendly. Some of them, I’m friendly with them now, still.

  STENGEL: And how did they start participating? They listened and then they started giving their opinions also?

  MANDELA: Well, they asked us questions. As far as I was concerned, I never started a political discussion with any warder. I listened to them. You are more effective if you are responding to a person who wants to make enquiries. When the information is volunteered gratuitously, some people resent that and you are not effective. It’s better to keep your distance. But when somebody asks, ‘What exactly do you want?’ because that’s how they normally asked: ‘Just tell me, what do you want?’ And then you explain. ‘Well you have enough food and [you] worry about these things? Why create such difficulties, miseries for the country, attacking innocent people, murdering them?’ And then you have a chance of explaining and saying, ‘No, you don’t know your own history. When you were oppressed by the English, you did exactly as we did. And that is the lesson of history.’

  12. CONVERSATION WITH RICHARD STENGEL

  STENGEL:…Mac Maharaj was talking about how you…in prison…used to represent other prisoners, and that was against regulations?

  MANDELA: Yes, oh yes.

  STENGEL: But eventually they allowed that?

  MANDELA: Yes.

  STENGEL: How did that happen?

  MANDELA: No, by insisting and asserting your right. They had to accept. Because when a man fights, even the enemies, you know, respect you, especially if you fight intelligently…I say, ‘This is wrong; I have seen it. What are you going to do about it? Whether I have a right, you know, to speak for other prisoners, a crime, an offence has been committed and what are you going to do? You’re an officer: you have to do something about it. Very well, if you don’t want to do so, give me permission to write to your head office. And if your head office doesn’t assist me, I’ll write to the minister of justice. If the minister of justice doesn’t help me, then I will have exhausted the channels of complaint within the prison service. I’ll go outside.’ Now they feared that. They feared that…I was persistent, and there are cases where I took up the matter and eventually went to the minister of justice, and when no improvement happened, then I smuggled a letter out and reported the thing to the pre
ss. So when I went to them and I said, ‘If you don’t attend to this, I know what to do’…they feared because of previous experience. So in that way, you know, they allowed me to talk for other prisoners.

  13. CONVERSATION WITH RICHARD STENGEL

  STENGEL: Do you think that people of your generation though, still have a kind of deference towards the white man that will not exist in the younger generation? Even yourself, for example, is there some residual…

  MANDELA: Inferiority to the white man?

  STENGEL: Ja.

  MANDELA: No, I don’t think so…because especially when you have been in the liberation movement for so long and you have been in and out of jail…One of the purposes of the Defiance Campaign of 1952 was…to instill this spirit of resistance to oppression; not to fear the white man, the policeman, his jail, his courts…and at that time 8,500 people went to jail deliberately because they broke laws which were intended to humiliate us and to keep us apart, to reserve certain privileges for whites. We broke those laws and courted jail, and as a result of campaigns of that nature, you got our people now not to fear repression, to be prepared to challenge it. And if a man can challenge a law and go to jail and come out, that man is not likely to be intimidated, you see, by jail life, generally speaking. And, therefore, even in our older generation, there is no inferiority except that it may be said that we are more mature in handling problems. We know that contact is the best way of convincing somebody. Because most of these chaps, you see, haven’t got the enlightenment, they haven’t got the depth to be able to appreciate problems. And when you confront them with an argument very quietly, without raising your voice, [you do] not…seem to question [their] dignity and integrity. Let him relax and be able to understand your argument. Invariably, even the most hardened warders inside jail, when you sit down and talk to them, they crumble very badly, they crumble…

  There was a chap, Sergeant Boonzaier, a very interesting chap…One day we had an argument and I said a few unpleasant things to him in the presence of other prisoners. But later, man, I thought I was too hard on him, because he’s comparatively a young chap. He was in his twenties, but a very tough, aloof and cold chap, and he had made a mistake, obviously. But I thought my remarks were too severe, so the following day I went back to the office and I said to him, ‘Look, I’m very sorry for what I said. It was not the proper thing to do. Even though you are wrong, but I’m sorry for what I said.’ He says, ‘You come back; you talk to me like that when you see your friends. You talk to me like that and then now you come privately crawling [laughs]…and ask for an excuse. You call those chaps that you swore at me in their presence.’ And I had to call them and to say, ‘No, he has got a good point because I pulled him up in your presence. And then I went to apologise to him privately and he wouldn’t accept it, you see.’ So he says, ‘Well, then I accept it.’ But even then, you see…there was no feeling of gratitude, of thanks to me, you know?…But he was still stuck-up [laughs]…

  One of the things the warders fear is when…an officer of a higher rank comes to our section. They want to be there…to receive the officer…I see an officer coming from a distance. So I thought I should tip him and I said, ‘Mr Boonzaier, Boonzaier, the colonel is coming.’ He says, ‘So? So what? He knows this place. He can come and walk alone. I’m not going to join him.’ [laughs]…Very independent. He was an orphan. He told me his story and that is why I got so ashamed of what I had said…He was brought up in an orphanage and…one of the stories that he told me was that when they eat breakfast, or any other meal, they won’t talk to each other because they hate their status. The fact that they had no parents, no parental love, and his bitterness, to me was due to that. And I respected the chap very much because he was a self-made chap, yes. And he was independent and he was studying. He was absolutely fearless…I think he left, he left prison, yes. That’s why I talk so openly. Otherwise I wouldn’t because it would affect him.

  14. FROM A LETTER TO WINNIE MANDELA, DATED 1 OCTOBER 1976, AT THE WOMEN’S JAIL, WRITTEN ORIGINALLY IN ISIXHOSA AND TRANSLATED CLUMSILY INTO ENGLISH BY A PRISON OFFICIAL

  There are times of happiness when I laugh alone by thinking of the opportunities I had as well as times of pleasure. But there is much time for meditation than [of] being busy with important matters. There are many things that attract attention – to chat with friends, to read different books, things that refresh the mind, writing letters to families and friends and revising those from outside. Thoughts come only when relaxing and surround one person, my permanent friends I know very well. The conscience is torn, respect and love multiply. That is the only wealth I possess.

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  From a letter to Winnie Mandela, dated 1 October 1976. It was originally handwritten in isiXhosa but translated into English and typed up by a prison official.

  15. FROM A LETTER TO ADVOCATE FELICITY KENTRIDGE, DATED 9 MAY 1976

  I’ve been out of action for 16 yrs [years] now and my views may be outdated. But I’ve never regarded women as in any way less competent than men…

  16. FROM A LETTER TO WINNIE MANDELA, DATED 2 SEPTEMBER 1979

  You will be quite right to regard ’79 as women’s year. They seem to be demanding that society lives up to its sermons on sex equality. The French lady Simone Veil has lived through frightful experiences to become President of the European Parliament, while Maria Pintasilgo cracks the whip in Portugal. From reports it is not clear who leads the Carter family. There are times when Carter’s Rosalynn seems to be wearing the trousers.5 I need hardly mention the name of Margaret Thatcher. Despite the collapse of her world-wide empire and her emergence from the Second World War as a 3rd-rate power, Britain is in many respects still the centre of the world. What happens there attracts attention from far and wide.

  Indira [Gandhi] will rightly remind us that in this respect Europe is merely following the example of Asia which in the last 2 decades has produced no less than 2 lady premiers. Indeed…past centuries have seen many female rulers. Isabella of Spain, Elizabeth I of England, Catherine the Great of Russia (how great she really was, I don’t know), the Batlokwa queen, Mantatisi, and many more.6 But all these became first ladies in spite of themselves – through heredity. Today the spotlight falls on these women who have pulled themselves up by their own bootstraps.

  17. FROM A LETTER TO AMINA CACHALIA, DATED 27 APRIL 1980

  How dare you torture me by reminding me of that pigeon meal! That is rubbing salt into a fresh wound. After 28 yrs [years] I still think nostalgically of that memorable day. Yes, you are quite right! It’s time for another meal. Where and when? It no longer matters. That you still think about it, and that you ask such relevant questions is terrific enough. I am tempted to say: boil the damn pigeons and fly them over. If some men in JHB [Johannesburg] frequently order a meal from a Paris restaurant, why can’t you manage it over a thousand miles? Of course, this is wishful thinking; You and I know very well that the meal would never reach the Atlantic. Last Dec[ember], our friend, Ayesha, from CT [Cape Town] sent me a Xmas meal fit for a monarch, unaware of the fact that there is no provision in this dpt [department] for such gestures.7 What a treat it would have been to taste fresh and real curry prepared at home! Not only was the parcel returned to her, but some of the containers were smashed. What started off with a lot of goodwill and affection ended up in frustration and, it may well be, even in bitterness. I wrote her a comforting letter and can only hope that she felt a little better after getting it. But even as I scribble these hurried lines, the heart and the head, the blood and the brain are fighting each other, the one pining idealistically for all the good things we miss in life, the head resisting and guided by the concrete realities in which we live out our lives.

  18. CONVERSATION WITH RICHARD STENGEL

  MANDELA: I had a number of works by [C J] Langenhoven…Christus Van Nasareth, Christ of Nazareth [Shadows of Nazareth]. And the other one is Loeloeraai…That w
as a very clever book…written in the twenties…where a man from earth flew to the moon…And he then compares the conditions [on] the moon and the conditions on earth. Actually, it was a man from the moon who flew to the earth, and he describes the contrast between life on earth and life in [on] the moon, and how the streets there are paved with gold and so on, and how he flew back to his country…

  STENGEL: Aha, and the reason you liked Langenhoven? Why did you like him?

  MANDELA: Well, firstly he wrote very simply. And secondly, he was a very humorous writer, and of course part of his writing was to free the Afrikaner from the desire to imitate the English. His idea was to instil national pride amongst the [Afrikaners] and so I liked him very much. Yes…And then from the point of view of poetry, [D J] Opperman…His poetry was not really geared towards any particular idea of a political nature; it was just a question of literature, pure literature, which was rather very good.

  19. FROM A LETTER TO WINNIE MANDELA, CARE OF BRIGADIER AUCAMP, PRETORIA PRISON, DATED 1 JANUARY 1970

  A novel by [C J] Langenhoven, ‘Skaduwees van Nasaret’ [Shadows of Nazareth] depicts the trial of Christ by Pontius Pilate when Israel was a Roman dependency and when Pilate was its military governor. I read the novel in 1964 and now speak purely from memory. Yet though the incident described in the book occurred about 2000 years ago, the story contains a moral whose truth is universal and which is as fresh and meaningful today as it was at the height of the Roman Empire. After the trial, Pilate writes to a friend in Rome to whom he makes remarkable confessions. Briefly this is the story as told by him and, for convenience, I have put it in the first person: