Conversations with Myself

by Nelson Mandela

  10.

  Development programmes – Black and white Doors of World opened.

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  From a notebook.

  1. FROM A CONVERSATION WITH RICHARD STENGEL ABOUT HIS TRIP TO EGYPT

  [Yasser] Arafat… was also visiting Egypt and I met him after meeting [President Hosni] Mubarak. Mubarak – I met him straight from the airport; I went to his palace and he received me well and we had dinner there, after I had briefed him about our situation and thanked him and the people of Egypt for their support. We had dinner, then I went to my hotel, and the following day I met Arafat.

  That was a very hairy experience I had there because we had to address a meeting in a hall and we [were] escorted by the police to the meeting. But the crowd was frighteningly large and I realised what was going to happen. I said to the police officer, they should bring reinforcements and open a way so that we could walk through. They tried; they collected some policemen, more than they had given us, to escort us. Then the officer in charge said I must come out. I said, ‘No, let members of my entourage go in first,’ because I was afraid that the crowd was so big that if I went in first, there might be, you know, a rush, and pandemonium, and my delegation, you see, will not be able to make it because what the police were concentrating on was me, around me, you know; even cutting off my delegation. Then [the officer] tried to get my delegation, but a few steps away, he came back [and] says, ‘No, you can come now.’ So I came out. In spite of the cordon that they had formed, the crowd just broke through. You know, I lost one of my shoes as a result of the pandemonium. It had to be brought inside when I was in the hall… and I [was] separated [from] Winnie. They pushed her out…

  They want to touch, they want to shake hands, and some of them, you know, can be very selfish… the members of the public. They catch you and they don’t want… to release you and other people are struggling to hold you… ‘Oh, I have been wanting to see you for a long time; what a day for me to catch your hand!’ And he’s holding you… You know, my hair was ruffled… and they stepped on my heel and [my] shoe came [off]. For about ten minutes they were looking for Winnie, and eventually they got her in. She was so angry with me; she didn’t talk the whole day! ‘Why do you leave me?’ I said, ‘What choice did I have?’ I was pushed left and right, and the soldiers themselves now, the police, were pushing me to make me escape from the crowd. I never even got a chance of addressing them because they wouldn’t keep quiet: shouting, you know: ‘Mandela!’… That type of thing, in admiration, you know. We tried to say, ‘Well, look I’ve come here to speak to you.’ They wouldn’t what-you-call, they wouldn’t give me a chance. And then I said, ‘Well, then I’m going away.’ Then some little order… but once I started, then they started [shouting] again. So we decided to go upstairs to the balcony

  … and be able to address them from [there], but it just didn’t help. I… never [saw] such a rowdy meeting. Rowdy because of enthusiasm, because of love, you know. I never delivered the address. I tried several times… I had to abandon it.

  2. FROM A CONVERSATION WITH RICHARD STENGEL ABOUT HIS VISIT TO THE UNITED STATES

  Oh, but the Americans were very warm and very enthusiastic… It was of course very exciting to land in New York, which is a city I have heard and read about since I was an adolescent… I found, of course, our representative in the United States Miss Lindi Mabuza… accompanied by Thabo Mbeki, the head of the Department of International Affairs, Thomas Nkobi, the Treasurer General, Barbara Masekela who is now the head of the president’s office and… several others. We were then escorted by security to our hotel.

  … I can’t remember… when the ticker tape took place… the sequence of events… That [ticker tape parade] was the most exciting experience I had in the United States of America… I knew that there was widespread interest in the anti-apartheid struggle in South Africa, in the United States of America, but to see that reflected in the conduct of the people when I arrived in New York was something very encouraging, very inspiring. The excitement of the people, the remarks they made which indicated unwavering solidarity with our struggle – in the street, in buildings, offices and residential… flats – it was just amazing; it swept me from my feet completely

  … To know that you are the object of such goodwill makes one humble indeed. And that is how I felt.

  3. FROM A CONVERSATION WITH RICHARD STENGEL ABOUT HIS VISIT TO THE UNITED NATIONS

  But I then spoke, but during the session our people had to send me home because we have a lot of friends in the United Nations and they came to shake hands with me, and I can’t shake hands sitting, you know? With diplomats and especially ladies – diplomats who are ladies – and when somebody comes you see I get up and I – I instinctively get up and shake hands. Now Thabo Mbeki and Frene Ginwala, members of our delegation, appealed to me to remain seated.1 I say, ‘But I can’t do that; when somebody comes to see me I must stand up and shake hands’ but they say, ‘You are disturbing the conference.’ I say, ‘Well stop them from coming to greet me. If you allow [them] to come and greet me, I have no alternative; I must stand.’ Then they said, ‘No, you go home. Go to, go to your hotel. It’s better for you to remain there instead of disturbing the conference here’ and that is how I left. [laughs] Yes. And they say, ‘You stay there until the conference is over, until this [United Nations] Security Council is over.’ And that’s what happened. [chuckles]

  4. FROM A CONVERSATION WITH RICHARD STENGEL ABOUT HIS SENSE OF THE AMERICAN SECURITY

  American security is very professional, highly professional… They brief you on how to move [and they tell you] that the most dangerous moment is when you leave any place to [go to] your car and when you leave the car to [go to] your place. And they insist… on a swift movement… When you travel from one place to the other you are surrounded by security. It’s difficult to stop and talk to people as one would like when you visit a new place… [to] find out how they think and what their views [are] on a wide variety of issues. But security both… here and in the States won’t allow you to do that. Therefore, it’s very difficult to assess and to be alive to the differences in the various regions that you visit.

  5. FROM A CONVERSATION WITH RICHARD STENGEL ABOUT PRESIDENT CLINTON’S INAUGURATION

  I have not seen such people gathered together in one place except [at] the Zion Christian Church in April last year where there were more than a million people… In this, what-you-call, place where they held the inauguration it’s a little hill… and then you can see the people going down to the valley, choking the streets… There was the platform, the stage… And then the whole ceremony started. It was done with a precision which was absolutely impressive… The capacity to organise such a big event was enormous… I couldn’t concentrate because of the warmth of the people coming to greet [me] and sometimes obscuring [my] sight of what was going on at the stage… So security, in order to protect me, also stood in front of me and even blocked my seeing the, what-you-call, the dais you see?… I was tremendously impressed by the warmth of the people towards the ANC [African National Congress]… I thought that people like Oliver [Tambo] and… others had done remarkable work in bringing the ANC to the notice of the people, to the notice of the Americans. Because… of the work that had been done by the organisation… people were so aware of who I was. And although it interfered with my… following the proceedings. But nevertheless I liked that, you see, because it was an expression of warmth and kindness and love. And then the speech of Clinton covered almost everything. It was global [and] very brief… He said what was necessary; I admired that. And then of course the way he admired Bush. It was clear now that the fight was over and… Americans were grouping together… to face their common problems… I thought that was a great vision.

  [In the]… evening, there [were] dances and I went to one of them, and then I was told that I and Mr Kweisi Mfume, the chairperson of the Congressional Black… C
aucus will meet Clinton in a holding room…2 We went there, shook hands with him and [had] a number of exchanges; not much because he was on his feet… After that he then went into the hall. There was a band playing; he took the saxophone and played. And we all danced, we all jived, you know. [It] was very moving, very moving indeed… That informality on his part was also tremendous. To have a president, you know, who is so close to the people. He has a common touch and that tremendously impressed me. With all his dignity, but nevertheless that common touch.

  6. FROM A CONVERSATION WITH RICHARD STENGEL ABOUT THE 1990 CONCERT AT WEMBLEY STADIUM IN LONDON

  I wanted to see Tracy Chapman and the Manhattan Brothers… I have always been intrigued by that young lady, and I was sitting in a box… when she came on the stage I was really excited and she then started playing… I was beginning to enjoy the music when… I was told that Neil Kinnock was here to see me and I had to come out. I was keen to see Kinnock because the Labour Party and its leader Neil Kinnock had been a strong pillar in our struggle, in the anti-apartheid struggle. They had demanded my release, and they had welcomed me when I reached London. They were very good and I was happy to meet him… but I regretted missing Tracy Chapman. But after I had seen Neil Kinnock then I went back to my seat [and] the Manhattan Brothers… came on the stage. Man, they evoked such memories of the fifties… Then I heard that the Russian ambassador… was there to see me. Two events… which I… looked forward to, I couldn’t see. At the end of the concert… I went to see all the stars and shook hands with them… I really enjoyed myself, but of course the security was interfering. [They] didn’t want me to be there for a long time… so I had just enough time to shake hands with [the performers] and to congratulate them. And of course I addressed the crowd itself.

  7. FROM A CONVERSATION WITH RICHARD STENGEL ABOUT NATIONALISATION

  There was already a furious reaction in South Africa to the statement I made from prison where I said nationalisation was still our policy; we had not changed… Of course there was a reaction from the business community, and that reaction… set one thinking because one thing that is important is… [to] have the support of business… When I came out [of prison] we concentrated on explaining to business why we adopted the policy of nationalisation and, of course, American businessmen… put a lot of pressure… on us to… reconsider the question of nationalisation… From the point of view of encouraging investment in South Africa, one had to think seriously about the matter…

  The decisive moment… was when I attended the World Economic Forum in Davos, Switzerland, where I… met the major industrial leaders of the world… who made it a point

  … to express their views very candidly on the question of nationalisation, and I realised, as never before, that if we want investments we will have to review nationalisation without removing it altogether from our policy… we had to remove the fear of business that… their assets will be nationalised.

  8. CONVERSATION WITH RICHARD STENGEL ABOUT HIS TRIP TO CANADA

  STENGEL: In Canada you were received by Mr Mulroney?3 MANDELA: Yes, that’s right, and in Canada I addressed a meeting… and a lady then asked me a question as I was walking out. Brian Mulroney had given me five million dollars, and… this lady… [asked], ‘Mr Mandela, this five million dollars that you got from Mr Mulroney, are you going to use it for murdering people? As you have been doing?’ Now I wanted to respond to her peacefully and in a serious way, but before I knew [it] she was thrown out. They pushed her, you know, and she fell… I tried to stop the thing but I was late and so they hustled me out. She turned out to… [have] been a member of the PAC [Pan Africanist Congress]… And the way she looked at me and [said], ‘Mandela, this five million you got from Mr Mulroney, are you going to use it for murdering your people?’ [laughs]… Oh, gee whiz! They treated her very roughly.

  9. FROM A CONVERSATION WITH RICHARD STENGEL ABOUT GOOSE BAY

  In Canada, at a place called Goose Bay, we stopped there to refill before we crossed over to Dublin, and as I was walking to the airport building I saw some people just outside the fence of the airport and I asked… the official who was taking us to the airport building, ‘Now who are those?’ He says, ‘… those are Eskimos.’ Now I had never seen an Eskimo and I had always thought of them as people who are catching… polar bears and seals… I thought I should go and see these people… And I was grateful that I did that because these were young people in their teens, late teens… And as I chatted to them I was amazed to find out that these were high school children. They knew – they had heard that we were going to land and refill and… I was very happy to meet them and was tremendously impressed because they knew about the release; they watched the release and also they knew one or two meetings which I had addressed. And it was the most fascinating conversation, precisely because it was shocking. I was rudely shocked, awakened to the fact that my knowledge of the Eskimo community was very backward because I never imagined that [they] were [at] schools… and [that] they were just like ourselves. I never imagined that. Although I was in the struggle, the freedom struggle, I should have… know[n] that people anywhere, throughout the world, change from their less advanced positions…

  I enjoyed that conversation very much, but the result… is that I caught… pneumonia… I [had come] from Oakland and the temperature there was about 40 degrees, [and] flew non-stop from Oakland to Goose Bay… [where] the temperature was minus 15 degrees and you could see patches of snow… [From] the change of climate… and standing outside… in the cold (although I had an overcoat), by the time I went to the airport building I had already caught a cold. And the airport building was warm; there was a fire and the manager was a lady – Eskimo lady – but very advanced, you know, very highly cultured person, and who told me about one of her friends in the Canadian Embassy in South Africa. And then there was another Eskimo, a male, who was the assistant to the lady. He was also very impressive and he said, ‘Well, according to our custom I must welcome you with music.’ And he explained. He took an instrument. It was a guitar, but traditional – the woodwork, you know, showed it was traditional. And even the strings, you see, were not arranged in the same way as Western guitars are arranged. Then he explained; he said, ‘Well, I’m going to… This song with which I’m going to welcome you shows the night.’ And then he started the music. The tone is a dull one, and dragging the notes, but very sombre, and then later there was a change in the mood: becoming brighter, at first hardly noticeable. Then as he continued to play the song this cheerful note became dominant and then it became brighter and brighter and even his facial appearance was changing, you know, in tune with the music, until he reached, you know, the peak where the music was very bright, you know, and very lively, and that is how he welcomed us.

  10. FROM A CONVERSATION WITH RICHARD STENGEL ABOUT CONTRACTING PNEUMONIA

  It was in Ireland that the cold got me. I had telephoned my family doctor Dr Nthato Motlana and Dr Gecelter, the chap… [who] helped in the operation on me. I had asked them to meet me in Dublin because I was not feeling well and I thought I should be seen by the people who had been treating me, you know? They saw me and they said… that there was nothing serious… I was [also] treated by the… prime minister’s doctor in Dublin, and then… addressed the joint session in the Parliament… Then we proceeded to London. I was recovering, but [as] I came out of the hotel, I was not aware that it was raining… and Winnie said to me, ‘Please let’s go back for your coat’… I didn’t want to be late for the British prime minister and… I said, ‘No, let’s go; we’ll be late if we go back.’ So when I got into the car a few drops caught me. And that made it worse… Now the pneumonia became very serious… As I was going out I met a group of youngsters, again in their teens, and they wanted autographs, so… I said, ‘Look I’m in a hurry. When I come back I’ll give it to you.’ And they said, ‘What time?’ I said, ‘Sometime in the afternoon.’ And… I forgot about the thing. When I was coming back I was also rushing for another appointment an
d I found them… still waiting. They were there in the morning about nine o’clock… [and at] four o’clock they were still waiting. So I say, ‘Well, gentlemen, I am sorry; I am rushing for an appointment.’ They say, ‘You promised; you gave us your word… your word of honour. We’ve have waited for you. Sign!’… When they said I had… pledged my honour I found it very difficult so I signed each one… and as I was signing, one of our chaps… said, ‘No, sign [only] one.’ But the children had waited there for the whole day… so I signed everything they gave me. [Someone] said to me, ‘No, they are going to sell the others, the other autographs.’ [laughs] That’s what they do. They hunt for autographs, you see, and then they go round and say, ‘Look, do you want the autograph of so and so? Here it is.’ Five… pounds, something like that. So they… must have made some money [laughs]…

  I met [with] Mrs Thatcher… for… close to three hours, and naturally we discussed the question of sanctions and the general political situation in South Africa. She was interested in our relations with [Mangosuthu] Buthelezi… I made no impression whatsoever on the question of sanctions … [I said] to her that ‘We are an oppressed community and we need to do something… to put pressure on the regime to change its policies, and the only pressure of a formidable nature that we could exert is that of sanctions.’ I couldn’t make any impression. But she was charming and then I had a private lunch with her… She was very warm, you know; she was just the opposite of what I was told. Yes. And in fact I had then to ask to be excused because I had to attend another appointment… But… she herself was very generous about her time, and I was also tremendously impressed by her… I was impressed by her strength of character – really an iron lady…

  I made this statement in Ireland that in South Africa we have decided to speak to the regime, to the enemy, and we regard this as consistent with the guidelines laid by the United Nations