Dylan on Dylan

by Jeff Burger

  [Commercial break.]

  Dylan: I’m usually in a numb state of mind before my shows, and I have to kick in at some place along the line. Usually it takes me one or two songs, or sometimes now it takes much longer. Sometimes it takes me up to the encore! [Laughs.]

  Kleinman: The band, I would imagine, has an effect on that.

  Dylan: Oh, absolutely. I’ve played with some bands that have gotten in my way so much that it’s just been a struggle to get through the show. At certain times it gets ridiculous.

  Kleinman: I’d imagine the flip side, too. Have there been bands that turn you on?

  Dylan: Yeah, this last band. I thought they were pretty good.

  Kleinman: Rolling Thunder was an interesting tour. It wasn’t just the performing but the whole idea of the thing. There was a spontaneity of a kind to it.

  Dylan: Yeah, there was definitely a lot of spontaneity to that.

  Kleinman: Was it scary or exciting?

  Dylan: A little of both. We were doing double shows on the Rolling Thunder shows. We’d be in a hall, say, for fourteen hours. You know, Rolling Thunder shows were six hours long!

  Kleinman: That had to be people loving making music.

  Dylan: Well [laughing], there were so many people. You know, the people in the audience came and went. People would bring their lunch or dinner or something.

  Mogull: Like a Grateful Dead concert?

  Dylan: Yeah.

  Kleinman: Was that your idea? Did it come from you?

  Dylan: No, it just happened. We started out with a small show and it just evolved.

  Kleinman: That’s an amazing thing to me, that you’re able to maintain that. A lot of people, when they get to a certain place in the business—

  Dylan: I thought the Rolling Thunder shows were great. I think someday somebody should make a movie out of them!

  Kleinman: And call it . . .

  Dylan: Rolling Thunder!

  Kleinman: [Laughs.] You’ve been smiling and laughing a lot here, but you don’t do that much on stage. But you say you really enjoy yourself. You look so serious.

  Dylan: Well, those songs take you through different trips. What’s there to smile about in singing “A Hard Rain’s A-Gonna Fall” or “Tangled Up in Blue” or “With God on Our Side” or “Mr. Tambourine Man” or “Like a Rolling Stone” or “License to Kill” or “Shot of Love” or “Poisoned Love”? Any of that. How can you sing that with a smile on your face? It’d be kind of hypocritical.

  You’ll do things on certain nights, which you know are just great, and you’ll get no response. And then you’ll go someplace else and you just don’t have it that night, for a variety of reasons, and you’re just trying to get through it. But you’ve got to get it to a place where it’s consistent. Then it stays on that level. It can get great, which is really triple consistent. I’ve done things where I might have had a temperature of 104, or I might have been kicked in the side that day. I have done shows where I could hardly stand up.

  And that’s kind of humiliating in a way. Before it even starts, you know you’re not gonna be as good not even as you wanna be but as you can be. There’s only been one time when I’ve wanted to replay one show. We played a show in Montreal in 1978. I had a temperature of 104, couldn’t even stand up. But the promotor said, “Well, you gotta play the show.” And we played the show and I didn’t have nothing—nothing! And the response, you’d think the pope was there! [Laughter.] And I’ve played other shows where I’ve had everything happening—I mean, I just rewrote the book. Nothing—no response.

  When I do whatever it is I’m doing, there is rhythm involved and there is phrasing involved. And that’s where it all balances out, in the rhythm and the phrasing. People think it’s in the lyrics. Maybe on the records it’s in the lyrics, but in a live show it’s in the phrasing and the dynamics and the rhythm. It’s got nothing whatsoever to do with the lyrics. The lyrics have to be there, sure they do. But . . . you know, there was this Egyptian singer Om Kalsoum. Have you ever heard of her? She was one of my favorite singers of all time, and I don’t understand a word she sings! She’d sing one song—it might last forty minutes—and she’ll sing the same phrase over and over and over again. But in a different way every time. I don’t think there’s any Western singer that’s in that category . . . except possibly me! [Laughter.] But on another level, do you know what I mean?

  [Commercial break.]

  Dylan: To me, it’s not a business, and to the people who have survived along with me, it’s not a business. It’s never been a business and never will be. It is just a way of surviving. It’s just what you do. It’s just like somebody who’s trained to be a carpenter—that’s what they do best. And that’s how they make a living, I guess.

  Kleinman: Were you ever going to be anything else? Were you ever going to be an insurance salesman?

  Dylan: I was never gonna be anything else, never. I was playing when I was twelve years old, and that was all I wanted to do—play my guitar. I was always going to these parties where all these biggest guys were, and it was a way of getting attention. It starts out that way but I never really knew where it was going to lead. Now that it’s led me here, I still don’t know where it is.

  Kleinman: You’re older than you were in the ’60s, but also you seem to have a degree of self-knowledge and certainty of where you’re going as a person.

  Dylan: I don’t know where I’m going as a person.

  Mogull: I hear contentment . . .

  Dylan: Well, in certain areas, yeah, I hope so. I don’t know what’s gonna happen when I’m not around to sing anymore. I hope somebody comes along who could pick up on what I’m doing and learn exactly what it is that makes it quite different. I keep looking for that somebody, not necessarily to cover me, but to take it a step further. I’ve already taken it as far as I can take it. Maybe I won’t see that person. I don’t know. But somebody, sometime, will come along and take it that step further. But I haven’t seen anyone. Now I don’t want to say that in a bragging sort of way; it just hasn’t gone any further.

  Kleinman: But there is something . . . that’s why you go back to the stage.

  Dylan: Yeah, well, I’m just thankful I can play and people will come and see me. Because I couldn’t make it otherwise. If I went out to play and nobody showed up, that would be the end of me. I wouldn’t be making records, I’ll tell you that. I only make records because people see me live. So as long as they’re coming along to see me live I’ll just make some more records.

  RADIO INTERVIEW

  Bob Coburn | June 17, 1985 | Rockline, KLOS-FM (Los Angeles)

  By the time you finish this book, you’ll have read lots of questions for Dylan from critics, radio personalities, and fellow musicians. But what would ordinary fans ask him if they had the chance? We got some strange answers to that question in Dylan’s 1966 appearance on Bob Fass’s overnight program on New York’s WBAI. Here are some decidedly more straightforward ones, from fans who called in to a program hosted by Bob Coburn of Los Angeles–area station KLOS-FM. This was Dylan’s first radio call-in show since the Fass appearance, and it aired live via satellite throughout the United States and Canada.

  The conversation took place only a week after the release of Empire Burlesque, an album widely viewed as an attempt to update Dylan’s sound. (As coproducer, he’d enlisted Arthur Baker, who was known for his work with hip-hop artists.) The CD reached only as high as number thirty-three on the American charts, perhaps partly because Dylan didn’t support it with a tour. But it contains some strong material, including the catchy “Tight Connection to My Heart (Has Anybody Seen My Love)” and two of the artist’s most effusive 1980s compositions, “Emotionally Yours” and “I’ll Remember You.” —Ed.

  Bob Coburn: Hello, again. I’m Bob Coburn, your host for Rockline, brought to you by Budweiser, the king of beers. Tonight, Rockline has a very special evening with Bob Dylan. As always, we have plenty of phone lines but just one number to remember in t
he US: that number is toll-free, 1 (800) 222-ROCK, that’s 1 (800) 222-7625. And one number for Canada too, toll-free as well: 1 (800) 344-ROCK. Empire Burlesque, the new release by Bob Dylan, rekindles the wit, spirit, and leadership that Dylan embodied in the ’60s and early ’70s. This album sizzles with emotions, stimulates with intellect, and satisfies musically. And Rockline welcomes Bob Dylan. Nice to have you here tonight.

  Bob Dylan: Nice to be here.

  Coburn: Now this is, amazingly, the first American release that you’ve given us with printed lyrics and the first one you’ve self-produced. Why did it take so long to get to that point?

  Dylan: Well, I put the lyrics on so nobody would mistake the words, which so often they do, as you know.

  Coburn: Aha, and why wait so long to self-produce? Did you finally feel that you could do it better than anybody else? The way that you want it this time?

  Dylan: Yeah, I did.

  Coburn: That’s really it? Thirty releases, most of them have been really landmark releases. How do you feel about this current release? Is this one of your best, do you think?

  Dylan: I like it.

  Coburn: Well, we’re going to hear a bunch of songs from it tonight. And we’ll put you on the air with Bob Dylan, too. Right now, a song from Empire Burlesque, “Tight Connection to Your [sic] Heart.”

  [“Tight Connection to My Heart (Has Anybody Seen My Love)” plays.]

  Coburn: It’s an evening with Bob Dylan tonight on Rockline. I’m Bob Coburn and our first phone call for you, Bob, is from Chicago. Doug, this is Bob Dylan.

  Caller: Hi, Bob, how are you?

  Dylan: Oh, I’m doing all right.

  Caller: Good. I’ve just got to say that I think your new album is fantastic, and I was just wondering if you’re going to tour, and if so, who’s going to be in your band?

  Dylan: Oh, I don’t know just yet. I might use some old people I’ve used and probably some new people.

  Coburn: You are going to go on tour, though?

  Dylan: Oh, yeah, I always do.

  Coburn: Yeah, it seems like it. Well, there was a period quite a few years ago where sometimes you didn’t, but that has changed. Any players on the album you think might be in there? You’ve got some big stars on the album, Mick Taylor and Ron Wood.

  Dylan: Well, Mick was with me on the last tour I did, and there’s always talk about Sly and Robbie.

  Coburn: As the rhythm section. We’ll wait and find out. Thanks for the call, Doug. Now we have a call from Knoxville, Tennessee. Alan, you’re on the show.

  Caller: Hi, Bob. I wanted to say thanks for the last twenty-three years of music, and I really do love your new album.

  Dylan: Well, thank you.

  Caller: I was wondering what poets you feel have had the most influence on your writing?

  Dylan: Hmm, John Keats. I used to read him quite a bit. Now, let’s see, the French poet Arthur Rimbaud and all those guys in the ’50s—Ginsberg and Corso and those guys—

  Coburn: Anything else, Alan?

  Caller: No, I think that’s it.

  Coburn: All right. Thanks for the call. There’s a joke that’s been running around: Sylvester Stallone starring as Arthur Rimbaud.

  Dylan: Oh, yeah.

  Coburn: We’ll talk to Ronald. He’s in Carlisle, Ohio, in Dayton. Hi, there.

  Caller: Hi there, Bob. I just want to say that it’s a great honor for me to talk to one of the great Christian rock artists of the century. And was it a big inspiration for you to have Jimi Hendrix record your song “All Along the Watchtower”?

  Coburn: Was that a big thrill for you or what were your feelings at the time?

  Dylan: Oh, yeah, that was a big thrill. He recorded “All Along the Watchtower” and another song off John Wesley Harding called “Drifter’s Escape,” I think. And he recorded “Like a Rolling Stone.” But he made “All Along the Watchtower” something different. When we play it now in person it’s more like how Jimi would have played it.

  Coburn: What were you going to say there, Ronald?

  Caller: I thought it was really a great song.

  Coburn: When that album came out, it wasn’t received as one of your best records, but in retrospect, it appears to be one of your strongest albums—John Wesley Harding. What do you feel about that?

  Dylan: I don’t know if it really was one of the strongest albums. It was OK.

  Coburn: You just think that is an OK record?

  Dylan: I do, yeah.

  Coburn: Huh, interesting. Thanks for the call, Ronald. We’ll turn our view to Brooklyn now. Rich, you’re on the Rockline.

  Caller: Hello, I’ll get right to my question. I’d like to know who are the women on the back of the Infidels album cover and the latest album cover?

  Dylan: Hmm, let’s see. The women?

  Coburn: Well, there’s one woman on the back.

  Dylan: Oh, yeah, there’s half a woman! That’s a picture that was taken at a party somewhere. As you can see by my expression in the picture, I don’t really know who she is even. [Laughs.]

  Coburn: It’s a drawing on Infidels.

  Dylan: Oh, that picture. Who is that?

  Coburn: Do you remember who those people are? This is just a drawing.

  Dylan: Hmm, well, the woman is someone I knew. [Laughs.] The man I think I was wishing to be me, I guess.

  Caller: The striking resemblance to Joan Baez, especially the sketch on the last album cover.

  Dylan: Oh yeah! It does kind of look like her, but it’s not her, though.

  Coburn: It’s not her. Good try, though, Rich.

  Caller: Oh, by the way, I just had one more small question. What do you think of Joan Baez’s imitation of you during her concerts?

  Dylan: Well, I think Joan is fabulous. Anything she does usually sounds pretty good.

  Caller: OK, thanks a lot. Nice talking to you, Bob.

  Coburn: Thanks for the call, Rich. Our numbers are toll-free in Canada and the US. From the album Infidels that we were just kind of looking at the back of, this is “Neighborhood Bully,” by Bob Dylan on Rockline.

  [“Neighborhood Bully” plays.]

  Coburn: Infidels, “Neighborhood Bully,” by Bob Dylan, my guest tonight for the full ninety minutes tonight, on Rockline, and we wouldn’t have it any other way. We have a call from Toronto. John, you’re on the Rockline.

  Caller: Hi, Bob. You worked with Mark Knopfler on a couple of albums. How did that come about?

  Dylan: Well, I met Mark on the Slow Train album, and we just kept in touch over the years.

  Coburn: Did you get in touch with him and say, “Hey, come play on my record?” Or did he call you? How did it happen?

  Dylan: The first time it was [producer] Jerry Wexler who did that, and then the second time I ran into him in New York, and he had just released the previous album to his latest one.

  Coburn: He certainly has his own style, but people in the beginning especially were saying he sounds a lot like Bob Dylan. Did somebody say that maybe you two should get together?

  Dylan: No, not really. Jerry recommended him to play on that album, and I went down to see him and I thought he sounded sort of like me, not really but a little bit.

  Coburn: Yeah, just a touch maybe. He’s a great player. Thanks for the call, John.

  Dylan: I don’t play anything like guitar like he does, though.

  Coburn: Yeah. He can really play some leads. We have another call from Chicago; they’re cooking there tonight. And we’ll talk to Rich. Hi, Rich.

  Caller: Hi, Bob. Yeah. This is Rich Ingle from Chicago. How you doing?

  Dylan: I’m doing all right.

  Caller: Good. I’d like to ask you about a tape I’ve heard, which sounds like it comes off an acetate from the Self Portrait sessions, and on the tape you do the song “Yesterday.” What I’d like to know is, was George Harrison at the session and did he play on that with you?

  Dylan: Well, I don’t remember that.

  Caller: Maybe I can help refresh
your memory. Also on that session you did the song “Da Doo Ron Ron.”

  Dylan: Hmm.

  Caller: You don’t remember it yet?

  Dylan: Well, it must have been an old one. [Laughs.]

  Caller: It sounds like it’s from Self Portrait. It sounds like that period. You also did an electric version of “Song to Woody” and “Mama, You Been on My Mind.”

  Dylan: Oh! Well, maybe George was playing on that. We did do some sessions.

  Caller: Did you do an album together that you didn’t release or something?

  Dylan: I don’t think so.

  Caller: No. How about that new song that he has out that you wrote—“I Don’t Want to Do It.”

  Dylan: Oh, yeah, he dug that up somewhere.

  Caller: Was that from around that time?

  Dylan: Yes, it was.

  Caller: OK, Bob. I just wanna tell you that I think that the new album is great and just keep up the great work.

  Dylan: Well, thank you.

  Coburn: Thanks for the call there, Rich. Do you have tons of material that’s never been released? I know you recorded over twenty songs for Empire Burlesque. Is there a lot of backlog material?

  Dylan: There’s a lot of stuff that’s laying around. Some are songs and some are just parts.