MR. DOLAN: I’m talking about the science-fiction conventions.
MZB: No, he did not.
MR. DOLAN: Why did you pay his way, then?
MZB: Because he was my husband. He had shared things with me when we were very poor; and then when I got money, I shared things with him.
MR. DOLAN: Maybe we could take a break. Are you okay?
MZB: Yes, I’m fine.
MR. DOLAN: Was Walter an employee of yours during the time that he attended these conventions?
MZB: No.
MR. DOLAN: Was he ever an employee of yours?
MZB: I believe he wrote some articles for the magazine.
MR. DOLAN: Did you ever pay him as an employee?
MZB: No. I paid him for what he wrote and was printed in the magazine.
MR. DOLAN: Was he ever paid a salary by you or your company?
MZB: I don’t think so. I don’t remember very clearly. I seldom think much about money at all.
MR. DOLAN: Okay.
MZB: The thing is that when we were very broke, he was always very good about sharing his poverty with me; and then when I began to make money, I shared everything I had with him.
MR. DOLAN: I’m looking for some guidance here. We okay here?
MR. WALKER: I mean, we only have about five more minutes left. Are you okay to keep–
MZB: Yeah, I’m fine.
MR. DOLAN: I’m going to take a break for two 25 minutes, and I’ll take my five minutes, and we’ll be out of here. Okay?
MR. WALKER: Okay.
MR. DOLAN: I just need to talk to Scott for a moment. (Mr. Dolan and Mr. Bonagofsky exit and return.)
MR. DOLAN: Did you ever tell Elisabeth Waters that children didn’t have erogenous zones?
MZB: I may well have.
MR. DOLAN: Do you have the belief that children don’t have erogenous zones?
MZB: At the time I believed it.
MR. DOLAN: And what time was that?
MZB: I think it was probably when my own kids were young.
MR. DOLAN: Are you aware of Walter writing any posthumus letters to Ken Smith?
MZB: Posthumus letters?
MR. DOLAN: There is some indication that he had written letters to be delivered posthumously.
MZB: I thought if he wanted it–
MR. DOLAN: Did you ever receive such a letter?
MZB: No.—he would have written it to me.
MR. DOLAN: Did you ever state to your daughter that these young boys got what they deserved?
MZB: I don’t remember.
MR. DOLAN: You don’t remember either way?
MZB: No.
MR. DOLAN: All right. Did you attend the Westercon 4 on Halloween weekend in 1982?
MZB: I believe so.
MR. DOLAN: Did you attend the Westercon 5 in 1985 on Halloween weekend?
MZB: I don’t remember.
MR. DOLAN: Do you have records of what conferences you attended?
MZB: No.
MR. DOLAN: Did you attend the 1984 Nebula Awards?
MZB: I probably did. I attend—you’d have to tell me when it was held. I go to them if they’re anywhere within my traveling capacity.
MR. DOLAN: Okay. In New York, the 1984 Nebula Awards.
MZB: No.
MR. DOLAN: Were you aware that Ken Smith was spending time with Walter Breen over at the other home that you rented to Walter Breen?
MZB: I never saw Ken Smith and, to the best of my knowledge, I never heard of him.
MR. DOLAN: Did you speak to the police following the arrest for the molestation of Ken Smith?
MZB: I don’t remember, but I don’t think so. I probably would have remembered it.
MR. DOLAN: There are statements attributed to you in the police report following the molestation of Ken Smith.
MZB: I don’t remember them.
MR. DOLAN: If you had spoken to the police, would you have been truthful and correct to them?
MZB: Yes, I would.
MR. DOLAN: The police officer records, quote, “I asked”—and this is on page—it’s not listed by page, but it’s Report No. 89-42141, which has been provided previously to counsel. And it’s a date of–
MR. WALKER: Do you have a copy of that right now?
MR. DOLAN:—2-6-90. Let’s mark this as the next in order. It’s going to be the fourth page back. (Plaintiffs’ Exhibit 3 was marked for identification.)
MR. DOLAN: I’m going to show you what’s been marked as Plaintiffs’ Exhibit No. 3, and I’m going to refer you to Page 4, the last paragraph of Plaintiffs’ Exhibit No. 3, Page 4. Quote, “I asked if she knew Ken Smith, and she said met him in the fall of 1988, briefly because Breen had brought him over, but that she does not know his family.” Does that refresh your recollection as to whether or not you had met Ken Smith?
MZB: I don’t remember him.
MR. DOLAN: Okay. So you don’t remember either way?
MZB: No, I don’t. I’ve been racking my brains back and forth, but I can’t remember ever meeting Ken Smith.
MR. DOLAN: In 1990, in that same page, you told the officer you did not think that Breen was actually engaging in sexual activity with young boys.
MZB: I believed that at the time.
MR. DOLAN: At that time you knew that he had sexual activity with [Glenn Frendel] when [Glenn Frendel] was under the age of 18, didn’t you?
MZB: Yes, I did. But as I said, [Glenn Frendel] was a teenager, and, as I remember, this was some little kid around 10, 12 years old.
MR. DOLAN: Would 12 years old be too young, in your opinion, then?
MR. BAKER: Calls for speculation.
MR. WALKER: Join.
MZB: No opinion.
MR. WALKER: Counsel, I think we’re just about done with the hour and–
MR. DOLAN: Sure. We’ll set up a another date. Thank you for your time. We were going to suspend but not conclude your deposition today. Okay?
MZB: Yes, sir.
MR. DOLAN: Have a good day, ma’am.
MZB: You too.
(Whereupon, the deposition adjourned at 12:01 p.m.)
MARION ZIMMER BRADLEY
I, the undersigned, hereby certify that the witness in the foregoing deposition was, by me, duly sworn to tell the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth in the within-entitled cause.
That said deposition was taken in shorthand by me, a Certified Shorthand Reporter and a disinterested person, at the time and place therein stated, and that the testimony of said witness was thereafter reduced to typewriting, by computer, under my direction and supervision. I further certify that I am not of counsel or attorney for either or any of the parties of the said deposition, nor in any way interested in the event of this cause, and that I am not related to any of the parties thereto.
IN WITNESS WHEREOF, I have hereunto set my hand, this 25th day of August 1998.
Janine P. Branco
25 CSR #10372
DEPOSITION OF MARION ZIMMER BRADLEY, 12/14/98
IN THE SUPERIOR COURT OF THE STATE OF CALIFORNIA
FOR THE COUNTY OF ALAMEDA —o0o— KEN SMITH, Plaintiff, vs. No. 778220-2
MARION ZIMMER BRADLEY, ELISabeth WATERS, and DOES 1 through 10, Defendants.
DEPOSITION OF MARION ZIMMER BRADLEY VOLUME II - PAGES 61 THROUGH 120
Monday, December 14, 1998
SHALLENBERGER REPORTING SERVICES
1254 Leavenworth Street
22 San Francisco, California 94109
(415) 771-1988
REPORTED BY: JANINE P. BRANCO, CSR No. 10372
2 I N D E X
3 EXAMINATION BY: PAGE
4 MR. DOLAN (Resumed) 64
5 —o0o—
6 E X H I B I T S
7 PLAINTIFF’S PAGE
8 4 2-page 6-6-54 typewritten document. 99
9 5 1-page 2-1-86 document entitled 115
“Rental Agreement.”
BE IT REMEMBERED THAT, pursuant to Notice of Taking Deposition and on Monday, Dece
mber 14, 1998, commencing at the hour of 11:24 a.m. thereof, at 200 Marina Boulevard, Room 1102, Berkeley, California, before me, JANINE P. BRANCO, a Certified Shorthand Reporter of the State of California, personally appeared MARION ZIMMER BRADLEY a Defendant herein, called as a witness by the Plaintiff, having been by me first duly sworn, was examined and testified further hereinafter as set forth.
APPEARANCES OF COUNSEL For the Plaintiff Ken Smith
THE LAW OFFICES OF CHRISTOPHER B. DOLAN
655 Montgomery Street, 16th FloorSan Francisco, CA 94111
By: CHRISTOPHER B. DOLAN, Attorney at Law
For the Defendant Marion Zimmer Bradley CAUDLE, WELCH, UMIPEG & BOVEE
1390 Willow Pass Road, Suite 200 Concord, CA 94520
By: M. HENRY WALKER, Attorney at Law
For the Defendant Elisabeth Waters HAIMS, JOHNSON, MacGOWAN & McINERNEY
490 Grand Avenue Oakland, CA 94610
By: LAWRENCE A. BAKER, Attorney at Law
ALSO PRESENT: BELLE ROMERO
EXAMINATION BY MR. DOLAN (Resumed)
MR. DOLAN: Ms. Zimmer Bradley, we’re going forward with your deposition today based upon the limitations that have been imposed by your doctors and your counsel; so we will have no more than one hour today of deposition. Do you understand that?
MZB: Yes, I do. Thank you.
MR. DOLAN: I’ve also agreed with your counsel not to delve into particular areas during this session of your deposition. Do you understand that?
MZB: Well, I think I know what you mean.
MR. DOLAN: Okay. I will not be asking any questions about your relationship with your daughter. Do you understand that?
MZB: Yes.
MR. DOLAN: I reserve my right to do so at a future date; okay?
MZB: Okay.
MR. DOLAN: Who is the president today?
MZB: William Clinton.
MR. DOLAN: Do you know who the vice president is?
MZB: I am not sure.
MR. DOLAN: Do you know who the governor of the State of California is?
MZB: The last I heard it was Willie Brown.
MR. DOLAN: Okay. And do you know who was elected governor recently?
MZB: Gray Davis.
MR. DOLAN: Do you know what party Gray Davis is a member of?
MZB: I think he’s a democrat.
MR. DOLAN: Do you know what day today is?
MZB: December 12th or 13th, 1998.
MR. DOLAN: Do you know what day of the week it is?
MZB: Monday.
MR. DOLAN: How many children do you have?
MZB: Three.
MR. DOLAN: Where is your home when you’re not living in this hotel?
MZB: 2223—2223 Fulton Street, Berkeley, California.
MR. DOLAN: Okay.
MZB: It’s just—it’s just—It’s between Shattuck and Telegraph almost exactly.
MR. DOLAN: Do you have another home that you own besides that one?
MZB: Yes, I do. We just purchased a place on Fulton Street.
MR. DOLAN: Okay. Where do you live when you’re not living here?
MZB: I live at Fulton Street, not—yes, I live at the Fulton Street house.
MR. DOLAN: Do you ever live on Prince Street when you’re not living here?
MZB: Well, it’s on the corner of Prince and Fulton. They run into each other.
MR. DOLAN: What are your children’s names?
MZB: My oldest son is named David Steven Bradley; my second son is Patrick Russell Breen; and my daughter is named Moira Stern. She’s married to Robert Stern.
MR. DOLAN: Do you have a nurse here today?
MZB: Yes.
MR. DOLAN: What is your nurse’s name?
MZB: Belle.
MR. DOLAN: Do you know where Moira lives?
MZB: At the moment I think she’s living somewhere in Novato. She’s going to the university there to work on a master’s degree.
MR. DOLAN: The reason I was asking you those questions is to try to determine whether or not you’re–
MZB: Whether I’m oriented in time and space.
MR. DOLAN: Right. Are you feeling sufficiently oriented in time and space to go forward with your deposition today?
MZB: Yes; I think so.
MR. DOLAN: Have you seen any physicians in the past week that have indicated that you’re unable to go forward with this deposition?
MZB: No. I’ve seen three physicians. None of them have mentioned the deposition.
MR. DOLAN: And do you have any knowledge of why we cannot go forward with your deposition today?
MZB: No.
MR. DOLAN: Very good.
I’m going to go over the rules of a deposition with you again, even though we’ve gone over them once before–
MZB: Yes.
MR. DOLAN:—just to make sure we’re both familiar with the rules of a deposition; okay?
MZB: Okay.
MR. DOLAN: The first rule of a deposition is I do not want you to guess or speculate as to anything that’s said here today. Do you understand that?
MZB: Yes, I do.
MR. DOLAN: I understand that you’ve had some strokes and that you may have some memory problems, but I don’t want you to guess or make anything up merely to be helpful today.
MZB: If I don’t remember something, I just say I don’t remember it.
MR. DOLAN: That will be fine. Thank you. The second thing is we need to talk in turn, only one person talking at a time because the court reporter can only take down written statements of one person at a time. So if you’ll wait until I finish my questions before you begin your answers, or wait for the attorneys to finish their objections before you begin your answers, that will be very helpful to us today. Will you do that?
MZB: Yes; I’ll try to do so. I can’t guarantee it. I tend to—people ask me things, and I tend to speak without thinking.
MR. DOLAN: Okay. That’s fine. Everything that’s done here today needs to be said in a full English language spoken word. We have to use English, and we have to avoid grunts and groans, but use “yes,” “no” or any other combination of words that you feel suitable or appropriate. Do you understand that?
MZB: I’ll do my best.
MR. DOLAN: If you do not understand my question, ask me to help you understand the question. Tell me you don’t understand the question or somehow otherwise let us know because if we receive an answer to a question, I will assume that you understood the question asked of you. Is that clear?
MZB: Yes, it is.
MR. DOLAN: At the end of the deposition process, you’ll have an opportunity to review the booklet that’s being typed by the woman to my right, to your left. You’ll have an opportunity to make any changes in the transcript you’d like, that reads a lot like a script or a novel like you may have written in the past, and you can edit it and make changes to it. I must caution you, however, that if you edit it or make changes to it of a substantive nature, I can comment on that at trial, or any other lawyer can comment on that at trial in order to make you look bad or to show that you may not be truthful or to say your memory is not very good. So if you think of something you need to change today, please try to do that today so that we can avoid the embarrassment later on. Is that clear?
MZB: Yes, it is.
MR. DOLAN: Have you read your last session of your deposition?
MZB: Well, yes. But since it was—all the questions were on one page and the answers on another, I found it very confusing.
MR. DOLAN: Okay. Is that your deposition or your Interrogatory answers; do you know?
MZB: I don’t know the meaning of those words.
MR. DOLAN: Okay. A deposition is the booklet that’s being written up by the court reporter to our right. It’s a question-and-answer thing. It reads a lot like a script. And this is a copy of your deposition from the first session, which has questions and answers (indicating). Did you read something like that?
MZB: No. The one that I saw had the questions on one page and the
answers on another one and nothing but numbers on them to keep them straight with.
MR. DOLAN: Something more like this that I’m showing you, your responses to requests for–
MZB: Yes.
MR. DOLAN:—admissions?
MZB: Yes.
MR. DOLAN: Okay. Is there any reason that you’re aware of why your deposition should not go forward today?
MZB: None that I’m aware of.
MR. DOLAN: Are you living in this hotel currently?
MZB: Yes, I am.
MR. DOLAN: And for how long have you been residing in this hotel?
MZB: Two weeks.
MR. DOLAN: Do you have any understanding of how long you expect to reside in this hotel?
MZB: Hopefully we’ll be out of here in another week. They have a—they have a place for me for—a temporary one at a disabled apartment.
MR. DOLAN: Very good. Have you been traveling out of the hotel anywhere to go to conventions or to any types of events?
MZB: No, I have not. I have been taken out to lunch once or twice. That is about all.
MR. DOLAN: Okay. When did you first start living with Walter Breen?
MZB: In, I think it was, 1963.
MR. DOLAN: And how did you come to know him prior to 1963?
MZB: We had been corresponding. We were both members of what at that time was known as Science Fiction Phantom. We both were readers of science fiction, and we would write to each other and discuss the stories and the writers, and occasionally other items of interest. Naturally we found we had interests in common and began speaking to each other frequently on the telephone.
MR. DOLAN: Had you met personally prior to corresponding with him?
MZB: Not at first. I met with him about the middle of the time.
MR. DOLAN: Where did you first meet him?
MZB: New York City.
MR. DOLAN: Did you understand him to be living there at the time?
MZB: Yes, I did.
MR. DOLAN: Were you living in New York City at the time?
MZB: No, I was not. I was living in Albany with my mother and father.
MR. DOLAN: Have you retained any of the correspondence that you initially had with Walter?
MZB: No.
MR. DOLAN: Okay. When did your relationship develop in terms of years to the time that you two began to live in the same city?
MZB: I—I am a little doubtful, but what happened was that we had been talking to each other frequently on the telephone, and then I decided to leave my home and move to the University, to Berkeley, University of California t do graduate work there, and he said that I could stay with him, and I accepted the invitation. And when I went out there we moved in together.
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