MR. DOLAN: When you say you moved out there, is that
New York or California?
MZB: California.
MR. DOLAN: So the first time that you lived with Walter was in California?
MZB: Yes. We had met several times before that but briefly.
MR. DOLAN: When you came to California, did you live with anyone other than Walter?
MZB: Yes. For a time I lived with Miriam Knight.
MR. DOLAN: And that is whom in relationship to you?
MZB: Well, she’s just another lady that I met through Phantom. She was married to a friend of mine.
MR. DOLAN: She still alive?
MZB: I don’t have the slightest idea. I haven’t seen her in years. When Walter died we went to Las Vegas to wait out a divorce. Marium agreed to keep my son and took care of David during the six weeks I was in Novato.
MR. DOLAN: And her last name was Night, N-i-g-h-t?
MZB: K-n-i-g-h-t.
MR. DOLAN: And do you know where she lived the last time that you knew of her to be in existence?
MZB: The last time I knew of her she had—I think she had a child. I remember that she and I and Grania Davis were all expecting children at the same time. I’m trying to remember. I think she was living in an apartment in Berkeley.
MR. DOLAN: Do you know if she ever changed her name from Knight to something else?
MZB: I don’t remember.
MR. DOLAN: So you began living with Walter sometime in 1964—is that right?—in Berkeley or–
MZB: I think it was very early in ’64.
MR. DOLAN: When did you marry him?
MZB: ’64. Later in the year, about June.
MR. DOLAN: Prior to marrying Walter did you ever discuss his relationship with any young men under the age of 18?
MZB: I think the subject may have come up in passing, fleetingly. Certainly very little impression on me.
MR. DOLAN: When you say the subject “may have come up in passing, fleetingly,” can you tell me what you can recall about the subject coming up prior to your marrying him?
MZB: Maybe at that point we were discussing civilization and the fact that young men among the Greeks—well, the women, of course, at that time were idiots and uneducated and living in Perdock, and so the men had emotional and friendly relationships with members of their own sex, and that formed the topic of conversation. It was an interesting subject. We talked about it a bit.
MR. DOLAN: And at that point did Walter confide to you that he had sexual relationships with young men?
MZB: He did.
MR. DOLAN: And do you have an understanding of the names of any of those young men?
MZB: No.
MR. DOLAN: Did he give you an indication of how many occasions he had sexual relationships with different young men?
MZB: No. We did not talk much about it. I gather it was something that just came up now and then.
MR. DOLAN: So it was your understanding it was something that Walter would engage in now and then?
MZB: Yes.
MR. DOLAN: You understand that these sexual relationships were with young men under the age of 18?
MZB: I didn’t know.
MR. DOLAN: Did you form any understanding as to the approximate age of the young men with which Walter was having sexual relationships?
MZB: No, I did not. He was in his 30s, so I naturally assumed they would be in their 20s or 30s also.
MR. DOLAN: Didn’t you come to know about [Glenn Frendel]l prior to marrying Walter?
MZB: Yes, I did.
MR. DOLAN: You knew he was under the age of 18, didn’t you?
MZB: Yes.
MR. DOLAN: So when you said naturally they were in their 20s to 30s, you knew of at least one that they weren’t 20 to 30?
MZB: Yes; I knew of that one exception.
MR. DOLAN: Did you inquire as to any other exceptions?
MZB: No, I did not.
MR. DOLAN: Did you prior to marrying Walter Breen inform him that he was to have no sexual contact with your minor children?
MZB: It never occurred to me one way or the other.
MR. DOLAN: To your knowledge, did Walter ever have sexual contact with your son David?
MZB: I asked David one time about it, and he told me one of Walter’s friends had propositioned him and that he said no, and so the friend said, “Okay. Let’s go ride the merry-go-round.”
MR. DOLAN: Okay. Tell me when you and David had this conversation.
MZB: I think it was sometime in ’64. Might have been early ’65.
MR. DOLAN: And how old was David at that time?
MZB: I think he was 13 or 14.
MR. DOLAN: Do you know the name of the person who propositioned him?
MZB: Yes, I do. His name was Robert Bashlow.
MR. DOLAN: Could you spell–
MZB: B-a-s-h-l-o-w.
MR. DOLAN: What occasioned you to ask your son David about whether or not he had been propositioned by anyone?
MZB: Because I knew Robert Bashlow, and I knew that anything with two legs which got in his vicinity was likely to be propositioned.
MR. DOLAN: I didn’t hear the last part.
MZB: I said that anyone in his vicinity of either gender was likely to be propositioned. I never paid much attention because my attitude was well no harm in asking as long he takes no for an answer.
MR. DOLAN: So your—So your understanding at that time in 1964 is that there was nothing inappropriate about an older man asking a minor for sex so long as the young boy said no?
MZB: As long as the young boy is given plenty of opportunity to say no.
MR. DOLAN: At that time did you also believe if the young boy had said yes that would be okay then?
MZB: I had not thought a great deal about the matter, but I suppose yes, that is a fair statement.
MR. DOLAN: Okay. Did you ever ask your son whether Walter propositioned your son? We’ve mentioned now about this other gentleman, Mr. Bashlow, but did you ever ask your son whether Walter ever propositioned David?
MZB: It came up a few years ago.
MR. DOLAN: Tell me how it came up.
MZB: Well, somebody was talking about it, and afterwards I said to David, “Did Walter ever say anything to you about it?” and he said, “No. I was too old. I didn’t pay much attention to it.” He wrote me a letter saying that Walter had been a very good stepfather to him. I think his exact words were that when it came to stepfathers he got the pick of the bisque.
MR. DOLAN: He had the what, the pick of the basket?
MZB: Pick of the bisque.
MR. DOLAN: Where did you have this discussion with David where he thought he was too old for Walter?
MZB: When he was 15 or so.
MR. DOLAN: About 15?
MZB: Yes.
MR. DOLAN: That’s when you discussed this with him?
MZB: Yes.
MR. DOLAN: So at the time that David was 15, David informed you that he believed that your then husband was not propositioning him because at that point David was too old for Walter’s tastes?
MZB: I think that’s what he said. To the best of my memory, that’s what he said.
MR. DOLAN: Was that consistent with your understanding at that time that David at the age of 15 would be too old for Walter’s tastes in partners?
MR. BAKER: Objection. Lacks foundation.
MR. DOLAN: You can answer.
MR. WALKER: I’ll join in that.
MR. DOLAN: You can answer.
MR. WALKER: Go ahead and answer it, if you can.
MZB: I don’t know.
MR. DOLAN: Did you ever undertake any inquiry after David said that to find out exactly what Walter’s tastes were in terms of young men?
MZB: No.
MR. DOLAN: Did it trouble you at all that your son—that your husband was interested in boys under his age?
MZB: No, it didn’t. At that time my husband and I were very in love, and I had no reason to suspect that
his interests lay anywhere else.
MR. DOLAN: But you had asked your son that question?
MZB: It came up in conversation.
MR. DOLAN: How did it come up in conversation?
MZB: I haven’t the least idea.
MR. DOLAN: To the best of your recollection, how did this come up in conversation?
MZB: I’m sorry. I can’t remember. It was just something we were talking about.
MR. DOLAN: So, was a topic of conversation in your family Walter’s interests in young boys–
MZB: It could have been.
MR. DOLAN:—back when your son was as young as 15?
MZB: Yes.
MR. DOLAN: When was your son born?
MZB: 1950, I think.
MR. DOLAN: And it was a topic of conversation such that you asked your son whether Walter had ever propositioned him; correct?
MZB: Yes.
MR. DOLAN: And so you were concerned enough to ask your own son whether your husband had propositioned him sexually?
MZB: I wouldn’t say I was concerned. I meant the subject had come up and I was curious.
MR. DOLAN: So you were curious enough to ask your own son whether your husband had made a sexual proposition to him?
MZB: I wouldn’t say I was concerned enough. I would simply say the matter came up in conversation.
MR. DOLAN: Okay. When your son indicated that he had been propositioned by Robert Bashlow, did you do anything to prohibit Mr. Bashlow from coming in contact with your son?
MZB: No. I think I might have thought it was funny.
MR. DOLAN: So you thought the fact that an older man propositioned your then 13-year-old son was funny?
MZB: I thought Robert Bashlow was a pretty funny individual.
MR. DOLAN: And you took no steps to prevent your son from coming in contact with a man who you knew had propositioned him?
MZB: Considering that David was almost six feet and Bashlow, as I remember, was about five foot, one, I didn’t worry about it.
MR. DOLAN: You’re saying your son was six feet tall at the age of 13?
MZB: Pretty near.
MR. DOLAN: So the question again is–
MZB: He’s now six foot, six.
MR. DOLAN: The question is: Did you undertake any action to prevent any further contact between Robert Bashlow and your then 13-year-old son after you learned that Mr. Bashlow had sexually propositioned your son?
MR. BAKER: Objection. Asked and answered.
MR. WALKER: I’ll join in that objection.
MR. DOLAN: You may answer it.
MR. WALKER: You can go ahead.
MZB: Well, I would say that—that that was much more David’s business than anyone else.
MR. DOLAN: So you didn’t do anything to prevent Mr. Bashlow, did you, from coming in contact with your son?
MZB: No, I did not.
MR. BAKER: Objection. Asked and answered.
MR. DOLAN: Did you discuss it with your—please take your water.
MR. WALKER: I’m going to join in that last objection.
20 MR. DOLAN: Did you discuss this proposition of your then 13-year-old son by one of Walter’s friends with Walter?
MZB: The subject may have come up in conversation.
MR. DOLAN: Okay. To the best of your recollection, tell me how that subject may have come up in conversation.
MZB: Well, I think one of us would have said to the other, Do you know what that idiot Bashlow has done now?
MR. DOLAN: Okay. I don’t want you to guess or speculate. Do you recall what Walter said in any regard regarding the issue of Robert Bashlow propositioning your 13-year-old son for sex?
MR. BAKER: Objection. Speculation.
MR. DOLAN: You can answer.
MR. WALKER: I’ll join in that.
You can answer.
MZB: All I know is that Bash—that Bashlow’s regarded largely as a laughing stock by most of our friends.
MR. DOLAN: Right. Okay. My question is a little bit more specific, though. Do you recall Walter saying anything to you on the subject of Bashlow propositioning your 13-year-old son?
MZB: As I said, I think he said something like, Do you know what that idiot Bashlow has done now? and then he recounted a story.
MR. DOLAN: Did he express any—To your knowledge, did he express anything that you understood to be disapproval to what Mr. Bashlow had done?
MZB: I think at the time he shared my belief that David was perfectly old enough to make his own decisions of that sort.
MR. DOLAN: Okay. So at that time it was your belief that a 13-year-old child was perfectly able to make their own decisions regarding sexual contact with adults?
MZB: Oh, really, a-13-year-old child? I wasn’t a child at 13, were you?
MR. DOLAN: The question—Could you read back the question for her, please? (Record read by reporter.)
MR. DOLAN: Do you have the question in mind?
MZB: I never thought that I was very intelligent, but this—my opinion at the moment was that 13-year-old young people were quite old enough to decide what they wanted to do.
MR. DOLAN: Okay. Did you have any understanding at that time as to whether the law was in contrast with your opinion on the issue of 13-year-old children making decisions about sex with adults?
MZB: I don’t think I ever inquired into the matter.
MR. DOLAN: I’m going to show you some pictures, and I’m going to ask you if you can identify anybody in these pictures.
MZB: No. Let me see here. No. At first I thought this was a picture of David in his teens, but it’s not.
MR. DOLAN: To your knowledge, have you seen a picture of that boy before in the pictures? Have you ever seen that boy?
MZB: Not to my memory, no.
MR. DOLAN: Looking at the pictures of the young boy in those pictures, do you think that boy is of the age to make decisions whether or not he should be having sex with adults?
MR. BAKER: Objection. Speculation.
MR. WALKER: I’ll join in that. And also lacks foundation. She’s never seen those pictures before.
MR. DOLAN: Okay. I’m just asking you, does it appear the ages of those young boys in those pictures are of the age to be making decisions as to whether they should be having sex with adults?
MR. BAKER: Objection. Lacks foundation. She doesn’t know the boy. She’s never even seen the picture.
MR. WALKER: Just a second. We don’t even know what age that is.
MR. BAKER: It’s also vague. Speculation.
MZB: What I was going to say is that I’m not a psychological counselor or a school teacher.
MR. DOLAN: Right. You indicated, though, that you think children at a particular age are able to make decisions whether or not they’re going to have sex with adults. That was your personal belief; right?
MR. BAKER: Objection. Asked and answered.
MR. WALKER: I’ll join.
MR. DOLAN: You may answer.
MR. WALKER: Go ahead.
MZB: I would say that my personal opinions are not at issue in this matter.
MR. DOLAN: Okay. I would disagree with you, and I would ask you to answer my question.
MZB: I would say that you are entitled to your opinion, sir.
MR. DOLAN: I’m asking your opinion.
MZB: My opinion is my opinion.
MR. BAKER: She’s already answered it.
MR. DOLAN: She’s refusing to answer the question.
MR. BAKER: She’s already–
MR. WALKER: She has already answered that.
MR. DOLAN: Are you of the understanding that children at some particular age are capable of making decisions about whether or not to have sex with adults?
MZB: I never claimed to be of great psychological knowledge, but on the surface of it I thought so at the time.
MR. DOLAN: Right.
MZB: What I think now has no relevance.
MR. DOLAN: Okay. Well, at what time did you think it was appropriate for children to
begin to make the decision whether or not to have sex with adults?
MZB: I don’t believe I speculated.
MR. WALKER: At what time are you talking?
MR. DOLAN: She said “at the time.”
MR. WALKER: Okay. But you’re asking the question. You have to make your question better. I’m sorry.
MR. DOLAN: At the point you indicated at the time you had an understanding of when children could begin to make decisions regarding sex with adults, what time are you referring to, what time period?
MZB: I would say that in their middle teens most teenagers are perfectly capable of deciding what they want.
MR. DOLAN: Okay. When did you come to form that opinion in time? Was it in the ’60s? The ’70s?
MZB: During my own teens, in the ’40s and ’50s.
MR. DOLAN: All right. And did you retain that opinion in the ’60s?
MZB: I don’t know when I began to change my opinions.
MR. DOLAN: Do you have any knowledge if you began to change your opinions prior to marrying Walter Breen?
MZB: I don’t know.
MR. DOLAN: Well, at the time that your son had informed you that he had been approached by Mr. Bashlow, you still were of the opinion that he at the age of 13 could make that decision; right?
MR. BAKER: Objection. Asked and answered.
MR. WALKER: Join in that. You can go ahead.
MZB: I would say that—as I say, Robert Bashlow was enough of a laughing stock that I never took anything he did seriously as a danger to anyone, including a kitten.
MR. DOLAN: The question I asked you, though, is different, which was: At the time that that incident happened between Robert Bashlow and your son, did you believe that a 13 year old could make decisions as to whether or not it was appropriate to have sex with an adult?
MR. BAKER: Objection.
MR. WALKER: Same objections.
MR. BAKER: Asked and answered about ten times now.
MZB: I certainly think that David knew what he was doing at that time and if Bashlow said anything to him that he didn’t like he could have broken Bashlow in two with one hand, so I never took it very seriously as a danger.
The Last Closet_The Dark Side of Avalon Page 46
