MR. DOLAN: Did you ever see Walter alone in the hot tub naked with any young children?
ELISABETH WATERS: No.
MR. DOLAN: Do you ever see Walter naked in the hot tub with Ken Smith?
ELISABETH WATERS: No.
MR. DOLAN: Do you ever see Walter touch Sterling physically in any way?
ELISABETH WATERS: Not that I recall.
MR. DOLAN: After reading this letter regarding Sterling, did you ever ask Sterling whether Walter was touching him in any inappropriate ways?
ELISABETH WATERS: Not until 1989 or 1990, and I asked him then, and he said Walter didn’t.
MR. DOLAN: Back at the time that you read the letter, did you undertake any investigation to see whether Walter was acting inappropriately with Sterling other than the discussion that you have mentioned with Marion Zimmer Bradley
ELISABETH WATERS: No.
MR. DOLAN: Did you ever call Dr. Morin?
ELISABETH WATERS: No.
MR. DOLAN: Did you ever ask Walter about the letter?
ELISABETH WATERS: No.
MR. DOLAN: Why not?
MR. BURESH: I’ll object to the question. It assumes facts not evidence. It assumes there was some reason why she didn’t do.
MR. DOLAN: Is there any reason why you didn’t ask Walter about the letter?
ELISABETH WATERS: I was cleaning the music room, and I found it on the floor. I picked it up and put it with the rest of his papers. It wasn’t as if he had shown it to me, or it was really any of my business.
MR. DOLAN: Did you think that that letter was odd?
ELISABETH WATERS: I thought that practically everything Walter did was odd.
MR. DOLAN: Did you think that letter was odd?
ELISABETH WATERS: Yes.
MR. DOLAN: Do you think that letter—did that letter cause you any concern at the time you read it about the welfare of Sterling?
ELISABETH WATERS: No.
MR. DOLAN: Why did you ask Marion about it then?
ELISABETH WATERS: It just–
MR. BURESH: Objection, it’s argumentative.
MR. DOLAN: You can answer.
MR. BURESH: Go ahead. You can answer the question.
ELISABETH WATERS: It just seemed weird.
MR. DOLAN: Did it seem more weird than other things that Walter was doing?
MR. BURESH: I’ll object to the question as vague and ambiguous, and I instruct the witness not to answer.
MR. DOLAN: You say it was weird; what do you mean by “weird”?
ELISABETH WATERS: How did you feel when you moved from New Canaan, Connecticut to the Bay Area?
MR. DOLAN: Liberated.
ELISABETH WATERS: I felt confused. I felt culture shock. Everything seemed strange.
MR. DOLAN: Okay. Did the fact that Walter was talking about being horny around an underage boy seem more weird than the other things that Walter was doing?
ELISABETH WATERS: No.
MR. DOLAN: Would Walter talk about being horny in relating to underage boys in other context during that time period?
ELISABETH WATERS: No.
MR. DOLAN: And so that didn’t seem any different to you than Walter’s other behavior?
ELISABETH WATERS: I don’t understand the question.
MR. DOLAN: I’m trying to understand. Did you think it was normal behavior, as Walter behaved, to talk about being horny with an underage boy?
ELISABETH WATERS: Yes, because I thought it was sort of teenage," I’m so great“,” I score", type thing.
MR. DOLAN: Okay. And that was normal for Walter to act in that manner?
MR. BURESH: In what manner? I’ll object to the question, vague and ambiguous as to “that manner.”
MR. DOLAN: Was it, from your observations of Walter, was it normal for him to be acting in that teenage kind of manner saying," I’m great“,” I scored"?
ELISABETH WATERS: From my observations of Walter, it was normal for him to be acting very immature.
MR. DOLAN: Had you ever heard Walter acting immature regarding sexuality or sexual issues before this letter you saw of to Dr. Morin?
ELISABETH WATERS: Not to the best of my recollection.
MR. DOLAN: Had you ever heard Walter discuss sexuality in any way with you prior to reading this letter addressed to Dr. Morin?
ELISABETH WATERS: No.
MR. DOLAN: What were the other things that Walter did which were as weird as what you read in this letter?
ELISABETH WATERS: Well, he went naked a lot. He didn’t—he didn’t really seem like a normal father. It’s like nobody really respected him. It’s more as if he were a pet people tolerated. You know, he knew coins, and he knew music, and that was about it.
MR. DOLAN: And what weird thing, though, I mean, other than being like a pet who people tolerated, what activities, what things did you see or hear him do which were as weird as stating in his letter to his therapist that he missed this young man and not just because he was horny?
MR. BURESH: Object to the question, assumes facts not evidence, mainly that there were things that were done that led her to believe that he was weird.
MR. DOLAN: She stated earlier that it wasn’t much weirder than the other things he did.
ELISABETH WATERS: Well, one day his house caught on fire and he called me instead of the fire department.
MR. DOLAN: Okay. What else?
ELISABETH WATERS: I really don’t know. He just always seemed weird to me.
MR. DOLAN: Did you, at that point, tell Marion that you—and when I say—strike that. At the point that you read this letter and brought it to Marion’s attention, did you indicate any concern for the welfare of Sterling to Marion?
ELISABETH WATERS: Well, Sterling was a big strapping kid, and I figured that if Walter tried anything Sterling didn’t like, Sterling would flatten him.
MR. DOLAN: How old was Sterling at that time?
ELISABETH WATERS: 15, 16.
MR. DOLAN: The question was, did you indicate any concern to Marion at the time that you mentioned this letter to
Dr. Morin to her about the welfare the Sterling?
MR. BURESH: Other than the fact that she brought it to Marion’s attention?
MR. DOLAN: Yeah.
ELISABETH WATERS: Other than that, no, I don’t think so.
MR. DOLAN: Is there anything else that you can recall about the conversation with Marion other than what you said, I found this letter that Walter wrote that says this, and Marion saying he’s impotent.
MR. BURESH: Other than what she has already testified to?
MR. DOLAN: Right.
ELISABETH WATERS: That’s all I remember.
MR. DOLAN: Did the subject ever come up again between the time that you first discussed it with Marion then and the time that Kenny was reported in 1989?
ELISABETH WATERS: No.
MR. BURESH: I don’t know what subject you’re talking about. The subject of Sterling Orser and the Dr. Morin letter?
MR. DOLAN: The subject of the Dr. Morin letter and Sterling Orser ever come up again?
ELISABETH WATERS: No, it did not.
MR. DOLAN: Did the subject of a possible molestation of Sterling Orser ever come up again between the time of that letter and the time that Kenny’s molestation was reported?
MR. BURESH: Object to the question, misstates her testimony, assumes facts not in evidence.
MR. DOLAN: Did the subject of any improper conduct or possible improper conduct between Walter and Sterling Orser ever come up between the time of talking with Marion about that letter and the time Kenny’s sexual molestation was reported in 1989?
MR. BURESH: Same objection.
MR. DOLAN: You can answer unless you’re instructed not to answer.
MR. BURESH: I just wish you would rephrase the question because the subject was the letter to Dr. Morin. He said he was—he missed him because he was horny.
ELISABETH WATERS: Not just because he was horny.
MR. BURESH: Not just becaus
e he was horny. Now whether that implies improper conduct or not is the assumption that’s built into the question. It’s not coming from what the witness said, so I think it’s a mischaracterization of her testimony, and it assumes facts not in evidence. So I would ask that the question be rephrased. As to the current question, I’ll instruct the witness not to answer.
MR. DOLAN: Did you ask Marion, at the time that you showed her this letter, whether she thought that Walter might be doing anything improper with Sterling?
ELISABETH WATERS: Yes.
MR. DOLAN: Okay. Between the time that you had that discussion with Marion and the time that Kenny’s molestation was reported, did the subject of Walter possibly doing something improper with Sterling ever come up again?
ELISABETH WATERS: No.
MR. DOLAN: Are you aware of any other letters that Walter wrote that in any way referenced anything sexual about children?
ELISABETH WATERS: No.
MR. DOLAN: Did you ever read any of Walter’s diaries?
ELISABETH WATERS: No.
MR. DOLAN: Have you ever seen any of Walter’s diaries?
ELISABETH WATERS: I think I saw part of one when—during the police investigation when they were trying to find somebody who could decipher the darn things. I couldn’t.
MR. DOLAN: Did you ever see Walter’s diaries at the goldfish bowl?
ELISABETH WATERS: I might have seen some of them on a bookshelf someplace. I don’t really remember.
MR. DOLAN: Do you have any knowledge of where those diaries are today?
ELISABETH WATERS: I believe Patrick has them.
MR. DOLAN: Did you ever touch those diaries personally yourself?
ELISABETH WATERS: No.
MR. DOLAN: Were you ever aware of any instructions to burn Walter’s diaries?
ELISABETH WATERS: Certainly no such instructions were ever given to me.
MR. DOLAN: Were you ever aware of there being any instructions like that?
MR. BURESH: At any time including up to the present time?
MR. DOLAN: Yeah.
ELISABETH WATERS: I have heard that Moira has written or said something that she had instructions to burn his diaries if the police came.
MR. DOLAN: Were you ever aware of that before the report of Kenny Smith’s molestation in ’89?
ELISABETH WATERS: No.
MR. DOLAN: Did you ever clean out the goldfish bowl of any papers or articles of Walter Breen’s?
ELISABETH WATERS: Yes, in 1993 after they gave you the lease and moved out.
MR. DOLAN: What did you do with those papers?
ELISABETH WATERS: I gave them to Jonathan Chase, who is the lawyer handling Walter’s estate.
MR. DOLAN: Did you throw any of Walter Breen’s papers out at that time?
ELISABETH WATERS: I think we recycled some old Numismatic News, like newspapers but not any personal papers.
MR. DOLAN: When you went through his property in 1993, did you ever see any pornographic material?
ELISABETH WATERS: There was some photographs. I think the top one on the stack was a naked man, and I sort of looked at them and went, “yuck,” and passed them to Raul, and said “Should we turn these over to the police?” And Raul went through the top couple and he said, “yes.” So we called the police, and the police officer came out and took them, and he told him that Walter had been arrested for child molesting, and that Cynthia Harris had been the investigating officer, and they should probably go to her.
MR. DOLAN: Who was the officer that you turned them over to?
ELISABETH WATERS: I don’t remember. It would have been the officer, whoever they sent out.
MR. DOLAN: How big was this stack of photographs?
ELISABETH WATERS: About half an inch, maybe three-eights of an inch.
MR. DOLAN: Do you know if there are any photographs in there of men with boys?
ELISABETH WATERS: No, I don’t know. I didn’t look at them.
MR. DOLAN: Did you know what was on any of the other pictures other than the top one?
ELISABETH WATERS: No.
MR. DOLAN: Did Walter have any pornographic magazines in the house in ’93 when you went through his personal effects?
ELISABETH WATERS: No.
MR. DOLAN: Did you know if Walter had any letters written to any young children in his personal effects when you went through them in 1993?
ELISABETH WATERS: No.
MR. DOLAN: Did you read any of Walter’s letters when you went through any of his personal effects in 1993?
ELISABETH WATERS: I sort of flipped through stuff enough to sort it, to sort out the tax papers from the other stuff, the other junk.
MR. DOLAN: Did you ever see any letters written to Ken Smith in there?
ELISABETH WATERS: No.
MR. DOLAN: Were you ever aware of any letters that Walter wrote to be delivered to Ken Smith posthumously?
ELISABETH WATERS: At one point in October of ’89, as to the best of my recollection, Walter said that he had written to Kenny, but I don’t believe the letter was ever delivered.
MR. DOLAN: Do you know who had possession of the letter?
ELISABETH WATERS: I would imagine Walter did.
MR. DOLAN: Did you ever see it?
ELISABETH WATERS: No.
MR. DOLAN: Did he ever tell you who had possession of it?
ELISABETH WATERS: No.
MR. DOLAN: Getting back to this time period sometime in—well, before 1981 when you saw the letter from Dr. Morin, prior to that, had you ever seen anything that caused you any concern about Walter’s conduct around young boys?
ELISABETH WATERS: No.
MR. DOLAN: How long did Barry live with you?
ELISABETH WATERS: Some months, I don’t remember exactly.
MR. DOLAN: Do you know if Walter ever acted in any way inappropriately with Barry during that time period?
ELISABETH WATERS: To the best of my knowledge, no.
MR. DOLAN: Has anyone ever made any allegations that you’re aware of that Barry acted—strike that.—that Walter acted inappropriately during that time period?
ELISABETH WATERS: Barry got arrested or picked up or something about a year later and apparently then he said something, but nobody believed him because the police had already talked to him before, and he denied it.
MR. DOLAN: Do you know where Barry got picked up or arrested?
ELISABETH WATERS: I think it was San Francisco.
MR. DOLAN: Do you remember Barry’s last name?
ELISABETH WATERS: Austin.
MR. DOLAN: How do you spell that?
ELISABETH WATERS: A-u-s-t-i-n.
MR. DOLAN: Do you know where his parents live?
ELISABETH WATERS: No.
MR. DOLAN: Do you know anybody that was a family relative of his; did you ever come to know where they live?
ELISABETH WATERS: He had a mother. She came to visit him once while he was living with us, but other than that, I know of no relatives.
MR. DOLAN: Do you know where the mother came from?
ELISABETH WATERS: Not really. I would guess San Francisco, but that’s just a guess.
MR. DOLAN: Do you know his middle name?
ELISABETH WATERS: No.
MR. DOLAN: Do you know his date of birth?
ELISABETH WATERS: No.
MR. DOLAN: Do you recall if he had a birthday during the time that he was living with you?
ELISABETH WATERS: I think not.
MR. DOLAN: Was he white, black, Mexican, any particular race?
ELISABETH WATERS: I believe he was mixture of white, black and Miwok Indian.
MR. DOLAN: Did you ever hear anything about Barry Austin other than what you just described about being arrested a year later?
ELISABETH WATERS: Some years later when Marion had a stroke—I don’t remember whether it was the ’87 stroke or the ’89 stroke—he showed up on the doorstep one day, and he said he heard she was sick and he came by to say, to give his best wishes for a s
peedy recovery.
MR. DOLAN: Did you ask him where he was living at that time?
ELISABETH WATERS: No.
MR. DOLAN: Do you have any understanding where he was living at that time?
ELISABETH WATERS: No.
MR. DOLAN: Do you have any understanding what his occupation was at that time period?
ELISABETH WATERS: No.
MR. DOLAN: Do you know if he ever enlisted in the military?
ELISABETH WATERS: No.
MR. DOLAN: Do you know if he had any brothers or sisters?
ELISABETH WATERS: No.
MR. DOLAN: Do you know anybody who might know where Barry Austin is located now?
ELISABETH WATERS: No.
MR. DOLAN: Do you know anybody who kept in any contact with Barry Austin?
ELISABETH WATERS: No.
MR. DOLAN: Do you know where he was picked up on this charge a year after, you said San Francisco, was it?
ELISABETH WATERS: I don’t really know.
MR. DOLAN: How did you hear that he had been picked up on a charge a year later?
ELISABETH WATERS: Somebody phoned me, but I don’t remember who.
MR. DOLAN: Do you know if it was someone from a police organization?
ELISABETH WATERS: I don’t remember.
MR. DOLAN: Can you tell me what was discussed in the conversation, to the best of your knowledge?
ELISABETH WATERS: I think it was not the police. I think it was probably some, some—somebody who knew the family, and they said that Barry had been picked up and that he was saying that Walter had molested him.
MR. DOLAN: What did they say about the issue of Walter molesting Barry?
ELISABETH WATERS: Nothing. They just said that Barry was claiming that.
MR. DOLAN: Did you ask Marion about that?
ELISABETH WATERS: No, I don’t think so. Marion may have been away at a convention or something.
MR. DOLAN: Did you ever discuss the possible molestation of Barry Austin with Marion Zimmer Bradley at any point up to the time that Ken Smith’s molestation was reported to the police?
ELISABETH WATERS: No.
MR. DOLAN: Did you undertake any inquire pre the investigation after hearing that Barry had alleged that Walter Breen had molested him?
ELISABETH WATERS: No, I didn’t. Why should I? The police were doing it.
MR. DOLAN: How did you know the police were doing it?
ELISABETH WATERS: Because if he was picked up and he was telling the police that Walter had molested him, presumably the police were investigating this.
The Last Closet_The Dark Side of Avalon Page 52
