MR. DOLAN: Did you say anything back to the person who said to you that Barry was accusing Walter of molesting him?
ELISABETH WATERS: I believe I said that Barry always was a liar.
MR. DOLAN: Did you ever talk to Patrick or Moira about whether or not Barry’s alleged statements to the police that Walter was molesting him were true or not?
ELISABETH WATERS: No.
MR. DOLAN: Were you ever contacted by the police regarding the investigation on Barry Austin’s allegations of child molestation by Walter Breen?
ELISABETH WATERS: No.
MR. DOLAN: Were you ever contacted by the Child Protective Services in any way regarding the allegations by Barry Austin that Walter Breen was molesting him?
ELISABETH WATERS: No.
MR. DOLAN: Did you ever apply for another foster child through the same group?
ELISABETH WATERS: No.
MR. DOLAN: Any particular reason why not?
ELISABETH WATERS: Well–
MR. BURESH: Object to the question. It’s argumentative, assumes facts not in evidence. I instruct the witness not to answer. You’ll have to rephrase the question. If somebody says they didn’t do something, and you say, “why didn’t you do it?”, that’s just not a fair question.
MR. DOLAN: Why didn’t you apply for another child, for a foster child?
MR. BURESH: Same objection.
MR. DOLAN: Are you instructing her not to answer?
MR. BURESH: Yes.
MR. DOLAN: Mark it.
(Whereupon, the previous question was marked for the record.)
MR. DOLAN: You didn’t apply for another child through a foster service, correct?
MR. BURESH: Let me just ask, when you say “you,” do you mean Elisabeth, personally, or Walter and Marion? So you’re asking her to speak on behalf of the whole family?
MR. DOLAN: Who applied for the child?
ELISABETH WATERS: You mean Barry?
MR. DOLAN: Yeah.
ELISABETH WATERS: We didn’t exactly apply for Barry. After Barry came to live with us, Social Services did the investigation so he could stay.
MR. DOLAN: How did Barry come to live with you?
ELISABETH WATERS: A friend of Walter’s brought him.
MR. DOLAN: Who is the friend of Walter’s who brought him?
ELISABETH WATERS: His name was Richard Khilstadius.
MR. DOLAN: Do you know if he was a priest or clergyman of some sort?
ELISABETH WATERS: Yes.
MR. DOLAN: Do you know where he is currently?
ELISABETH WATERS: I believe he lives somewhere in San Francisco, but I haven’t seen him in years.
MR. DOLAN: When he brought him, did Mr. Khilstadius in any way indicate whether or not Barry was a child prostitute?
ELISABETH WATERS: Not that I heard of.
MR. DOLAN: Did he ever have any discussions with you or Walter about Barry being sexually inappropriate in any way?
ELISABETH WATERS: No.
MR. DOLAN: So if I understand it, Richard Khilstadius brings Barry to live with the people living at 221 Prince Street?
ELISABETH WATERS: 2221.
MR. DOLAN: 2221?
ELISABETH WATERS: Yes.
MR. DOLAN: And at some point then, there’s an application made for him to become a foster child; is that correct?
ELISABETH WATERS: Yes.
MR. DOLAN: And who filed the application?
ELISABETH WATERS: Well, since Barry was a ward of the court, in order for him to stay with us, the paperwork had to be sorted out, and that was just a matter of sorting out all the paperwork.
MR. DOLAN: Who sorted out all the paperwork?
ELISABETH WATERS: I don’t know.
MR. DOLAN: Were you involved in that process?
ELISABETH WATERS: Not directly.
MR. DOLAN: Do you know if any documents were filed with any courts regarding Barry Austin being put into the custody of the group there on Prince Street?
ELISABETH WATERS: I don’t know.
MR. DOLAN: Were you in any way designated as a legal guardian of Barry Austin?
ELISABETH WATERS: No.
MR. DOLAN: Do you know if Marion was?
ELISABETH WATERS: I believe Marion and Walter were jointly. Actually, this may have been ’80 rather than ’81 because it was when—it was before—it was when Marion and I were still living on Telegraph Avenue, and Walter was living on Prince Street, so it may have only been Walter who was designated as the guardian. I really don’t know.
MR. DOLAN: Can you tell me anything else about the conversation you had with this unidentified party who called you to tell you that Barry was making allegations that he had been molested when he was living on Prince Street?
ELISABETH WATERS: No.
MR. DOLAN: Can you tell me anything more about who this person might have been who placed this call to you?
ELISABETH WATERS: No.
MR. DOLAN: Were there any other children living at Prince Street at the time that you received this call about Barry’s allegations other than Moira and Patrick?
ELISABETH WATERS: I don’t remember if it was Moira and Patrick. No, I don’t remember exactly when this call was. It was over a year after Barry left, so I guess it would have been Moira and Patrick.
MR. DOLAN: Any other children living there at that time that you’re aware of?
ELISABETH WATERS: I think not.
MR. DOLAN: Did you ever discuss these allegations of
4 Patrick—strike that. Did you ever discuss these allegations of Walter molesting Barry Austin with Walter?
ELISABETH WATERS: No.
MR. DOLAN: I may have asked you this. Did you ever discuss them with Marion?
ELISABETH WATERS: No.
MR. DOLAN: Did you ever discuss it with anybody after you had the phone call?
ELISABETH WATERS: No, not that I recall.
MR. DOLAN: Through the present time, other than perhaps with counsel, have you ever discussed the issue of this phone call regarding Barry Austin’s molestation?
ELISABETH WATERS: No.
MR. DOLAN: So at this point in time, you read this letter regarding Walter’s statements on Sterling, correct?
ELISABETH WATERS: Yes.
MR. DOLAN: And you’ve heard, at least, an allegation of Barry Austin that Walter was molesting him, correct?
ELISABETH WATERS: Yes.
MR. DOLAN: At this point are you getting at all concerned about Walter’s interaction with young boys?
ELISABETH WATERS: No.
MR. DOLAN: At this point you’re also aware that Walter has written the book Greek Love, correct?
ELISABETH WATERS: I’m not sure I was aware of it that soon. I think it was a couple years later that I learned about that.
MR. DOLAN: Didn’t you indicate that prior to Mr. Austin coming to live there that you were aware that Walter had authored articles on the issues of men and boys like those contained in Greek Love?
MR. BURESH: Let me hear the question again, please.
ELISABETH WATERS: I’m not aware–
MR. BURESH: Before you answer, let me hear the question read back. (Whereupon, the record was back by the reporter.)
MR. BURESH: Okay.
ELISABETH WATERS: I have no knowledge that Walter wrote articles. I know he wrote Greek Love. I don’t remember exactly when I learned he wrote Greek Love, and I did not read Greek Love until I found a copy for Officer Harris in 1989.
MR. DOLAN: Okay. But at this time you read Walter’s letter to Dr. Morin, correct?
ELISABETH WATERS: I saw a paragraph of it.
MR. BURESH: And by “this time,” you’re referring to the time of the phone call regarding Barry?
MR. DOLAN: Sure.
MR. DOLAN: And you have heard a phone call regarding an allegation of molestation by Barry Austin, correct?
ELISABETH WATERS: Yes.
MR. DOLAN: Do you undertake any investigation at that time to find out whether or not Wal
ter Breen was acting improperly in a sexual manner with any of the people who were on the property at Prince Street?
MR. BURESH: Other than what she has already testified to?
MR. DOLAN: Other than—the only thing I have never heard you testify to is that you asked Marion about the letter?
ELISABETH WATERS: Uh-hum.
MR. DOLAN: Other than asking Marion about the letter, did you do anything after hearing about Barry Austin’s allegation of molestation to inquire as to whether or not Walter Breen was acting inappropriately with any children on any of the properties owned by Marion Zimmer Bradley?
ELISABETH WATERS: The only property owned at the time was 2221 Prince Street, which was owned jointly by Marion and Walter, and the children living in it were Walter’s own children, so, no.
MR. DOLAN: Did you inquire in any way to find out whether or not Walter was acting inappropriately with the numerous guests that you said were often there who were friends of Moira’s and Patrick’s?
ELISABETH WATERS: No.
MR. DOLAN: Do you guys want to take a break at this point? We have been going for a while.
MR. BURESH: It’s up to the witness. (Whereupon, a recess was taken.)
MR. DOLAN: Do you know if Richard Khilstadius has ever been accused of child molestation?
ELISABETH WATERS: Accused by whom?
MR. DOLAN: Anyone.
ELISABETH WATERS: I think I sort of heard vague gossip that he might be, but I never heard that anybody actually accused him.
MR. DOLAN: Who did you hear vague gossip from that Richard Khilstadius might be a child molester; who did you hear that from?
ELISABETH WATERS: I don’t really remember.
MR. DOLAN: Did you ever discuss that with Marion?
ELISABETH WATERS: No.
MR. DOLAN: Did you ever discuss it with anyone?
ELISABETH WATERS: No, I was brought up to believe that other people’s sex lives were none of my business.
MR. BURESH: You’re volunteering.
ELISABETH WATERS: Sorry.
MR. DOLAN: What other fosterlings lived at the house in the ’81 to ’85 time period besides Barry and [Cyndi Beckett], anyone?
(Cyndi Beckett is Cyndy Nha June?)
ELISABETH WATERS: I think Kat Krischild.
MR. DOLAN: Is Kat Krischild a female?
ELISABETH WATERS: Yes.
MR. DOLAN: Do you know how old Kat Krischild was when she lived there?
ELISABETH WATERS: You already asked me this, and I already answered this.
MR. DOLAN: Humor me, please.
MR. BURESH: I wrote that one down.
MR. DOLAN: I may have too.
ELISABETH WATERS: I remember, I believe she was in her early 20’s.
MR. DOLAN: How old was Elizabeth Rousseau when they moved in there?
ELISABETH WATERS: I think 18.
MR. DOLAN: Do you know if Marion Zimmer Bradley and [Cyndi Beckett] ever had any sexual relationships?
ELISABETH WATERS: I think there was one incident.
MR. DOLAN: Was that an orgy?
MR. BURESH: Do you want to define “orgy” for the witness?
MR. DOLAN: It’s been talked about in this litigation so far that it involved more than [Cyndi Beckett] and Marion Zimmer Bradley; it may have involved two other partners?
ELISABETH WATERS: Yes, I believe it did.
MR. DOLAN: Do you know when that occurred?
ELISABETH WATERS: I believe it was in 1983.
MR. DOLAN: Do you know where it occurred?
ELISABETH WATERS: It was at Philip and Anodea’s house.
MR. DOLAN: Was there any special occasion; was it Marion’s birthday or anything?
ELISABETH WATERS: No.
MR. DOLAN: Do you know who arranged it?
ELISABETH WATERS: It was a sort of spontaneous thing.
MR. DOLAN: Did you have any role in arranging that?
MR. BURESH: Assumes facts not in evidence. There’s no evidence that anybody arranged anything.
MR. DOLAN: Did you have any role in that coming about?
MR. BURESH: In what coming about; the get together or the orgy?
MR. DOLAN: The orgy.
MR. BURESH: Okay.
MR. BURESH: Have we decided on the term “orgy” yet?
MR. DOLAN: Like I said, more than two parties involved.
MR. DOLAN: How many parties were involved in the sexual activity?
ELISABETH WATERS: Four.
MR. DOLAN: Do you consider four people involved in a sexual activity to be an orgy?
MR. BURESH: Object to the question. It’s irrelevant, not reasonably calculated to lead to the discovery of admissible evidence. Who cares what she characterizes it as.
MR. DOLAN: You can answer.
MR. BURESH: No, I’ll instruct the witness not to answer.
MR. DOLAN: What do you call four people together having sex?
MR. BURESH: Object. As if she calls it anything. It really doesn’t matter, Chris.
MR. DOLAN: Well, I’m trying to use a word that she wants me to define.
MR. BURESH: How about “group sex”?
MR. DOLAN: Would you call four people together having sex an orgy?
ELISABETH WATERS: No, I don’t think I would.
MR. DOLAN: Have you ever defined this particular episode of these four people together as an orgy?
I don’t remember.
MR. DOLAN: How old was [Cyndi Beckett] when this occurred?
ELISABETH WATERS: 19, to the best of my knowledge.
MR. DOLAN: Who was involved in this particular group activity?
ELISABETH WATERS: [Cyndi Beckett], Phil, Anodea and Marion.
MR. DOLAN: And there was a fourth party, as well?
ELISABETH WATERS: That is four people.
MR. DOLAN: Were you involved in it?
ELISABETH WATERS: No.
MR. DOLAN: Did you witness it?
ELISABETH WATERS: Not really.
MR. DOLAN: Could you explain, please?
ELISABETH WATERS: I was over at Philip and Anodea’s house visiting them, and [Name A] was over there for some reason or another. I think she was chasing after Philip. I think she was having an affair with Philip at the time. And Marion was coming over, and I made some stupid joke about if you really want to make Marion happy, why don’t you jump her when she comes through the door and have sex with her. Probably the stupidest and most tasteless thing I ever said in my entire live, but I never expected them to take me seriously, and when Marion did, they did it. I just sort of rolled over on the other side of the room and closed my eyes and pretended to be asleep.
MR. DOLAN: Were there any other people in the room besides yourself and those four?
ELISABETH WATERS: No.
MR. DOLAN: Were there any children present at the time?
ELISABETH WATERS: No.
MR. DOLAN: Was [Name A] still living at the house at that time?
ELISABETH WATERS: At Prince Street?
MR. DOLAN: Yes.
ELISABETH WATERS: Yes.
MR. DOLAN: Do you know if Marion and [Name A] ever had a physical relationship besides that one occasion?
ELISABETH WATERS: I’m pretty sure they didn’t because Marion was really mad at me for that. She said [Name A] had been trying to crawl into her bed for months, and until then, she had successfully avoided her.
MR. DOLAN: Did Kat Krischild and Marion ever have a sexual relationship, as far as you know?
ELISABETH WATERS: As far as I know, no.
MR. DOLAN: How about Elizabeth Rousseau?
ELISABETH WATERS: No.
MR. DOLAN: Did anyone ever mention anything to you about a young boy being in Walter’s bed at Prince Street?
ELISABETH WATERS: There was one night while Marion and I were still living at Telegraph Avenue when Moira called in the middle of the night and said that Barry Austin was in Walter’s bed. This was after Social Services had taken him back and he was out on the streets agai
n, and Walter didn’t know he was there, but Moira had gotten up in the middle of the night and found them there and called us. And because Barry had been coming back and bothering Moira prior to this, I had told him the time before that if he ever came back again, I would call the police. Marion and I got up and got dressed and came over to Prince Street, and I did call the police. And the police came, and they woke up Barry, and they asked him
15 what he was doing in Walter’s bed. And he said he was sleeping there because he knew that Walter wouldn’t be there, and then the police sent Marion and me out of the room, and they talked to Barry.
(That is not what my concern was.)
MR. DOLAN: Did the police ask you any further questions about what Barry was doing in Walter’s bed?
ELISABETH WATERS: No.
MR. DOLAN: How long after Barry had moved out did this occur?
ELISABETH WATERS: Six months, maybe.
MR. DOLAN: Did Moira indicate to you that she thought there was something inappropriate going on between Barry and Walter?
ELISABETH WATERS: No, she was just furious to find him on the property.
MR. DOLAN: Did you ever ask Walter what Barry was doing in his bed?
ELISABETH WATERS: No.
MR. DOLAN: Was Walter home when the police came?
ELISABETH WATERS: Yes, I believe he was working in the music room, which is upstairs at the other end of the house.
MR. DOLAN: Do you know if the police interviewed Walter at all about what Barry was doing in his bed?
ELISABETH WATERS: I think they must have, but I don’t remember for certain.
MR. DOLAN: Did Barry have his own bed when he lived at the house?
ELISABETH WATERS: Yes, of course.
MR. DOLAN: What was the room that Barry occupied when he was living in the house?
ELISABETH WATERS: It was one of the downstairs bedrooms. The bedrooms are sort of—there is a room, and there are two bedrooms off of it, and he was in the middle room. Patrick’s bedroom was off one side and Moira’s bedroom was off the other.
MR. DOLAN: And where was Walter’s in relationship to those?
ELISABETH WATERS: After that there is the laundry room, the hall, the bathroom and Walter’s room.
MR. DOLAN: Was anybody living in Barry’s room the night that he was in Walter’s bed?
ELISABETH WATERS: I don’t remember.
MR. DOLAN: As far as you know, was Barry’s bed available for Barry to sleep in the night that he was found in Walter’s bed?
The Last Closet_The Dark Side of Avalon Page 53
