The Last Closet_The Dark Side of Avalon
Page 54
ELISABETH WATERS: I don’t know, but Moira would have found him there much faster because it was right next to her room, so if he was trying to hide from Moira, Walter’s bed was a better bet.
MR. DOLAN: When you say “hide from Moira,” why would he be hiding from Moira?
ELISABETH WATERS: Because Moira hated his guts and didn’t want him on the property, and he wasn’t supposed to be there. I mean, he had committed an unlawful entry, for starters.
MR. DOLAN: Was he arrested for that, do you know?
ELISABETH WATERS: The police took him away. I don’t know if they finally arrested him.
MR. DOLAN: I’ve got to make a call. Excuse me, please. (Whereupon, a recess was taken.)
MR. DOLAN: Would you read the last question and answer for me. (Whereupon, the record was read by the reporter.)
MR. DOLAN: Were you ever notified by anyone that there were any young boys in Walter’s bed other than Barry on any occasion?
ELISABETH WATERS: No.
MR. DOLAN: And you never undertook any investigation after Barry was found in the bed to find out why he was there, correct?
ELISABETH WATERS: No—I mean, yes, that’s correct.
MR. DOLAN: Okay.
ELISABETH WATERS: No, I did not investigate.
MR. DOLAN: Were you ever aware of Walter being alone in his bedroom with any young boys?
ELISABETH WATERS: No.
MR. DOLAN: We sort of covered who was there from 1981 through 1985. When did Walter move over to the goldfish bowl?
ELISABETH WATERS: 1987. Sorry, no, wait a minute. I guess it was 1985.
MR. DOLAN: Let’s go on to another topic here. Do you have any information that would pertain to Marion Zimmer Bradley having any sexual interaction with Moira Stern?
ELISABETH WATERS: No.
MR. DOLAN: Have you ever heard that issue discussed at any time?
ELISABETH WATERS: I have heard Moira say some things about it.
MR. DOLAN: What have you heard Moira say about it?
ELISABETH WATERS: She said that one time her mother fondled her breasts while she was in the shower.
MR. DOLAN: Anything else?
ELISABETH WATERS: That Moira said to me, no.
MR. DOLAN: Okay. Did you ever ask Marion if any of that was true?
ELISABETH WATERS: Yes.
MR. DOLAN: What did Marion say?
ELISABETH WATERS: She said that children before the age of puberty didn’t have erogenous zones.
MR. DOLAN: Anything else she said to you?
ELISABETH WATERS: No.
MR. DOLAN: When did she tell you that?
ELISABETH WATERS: When I asked her if—when I said that Moira was—when I said that I had been visiting Moira in the hospital, and that Moira had said that Marion fondled her breasts in the shower.
MR. DOLAN: How old was—strike that. What year was this that you had this discussion with Marion Zimmer Bradley?
ELISABETH WATERS: I guess it would have been around 1990.
MR. DOLAN: Did you ever ask Marion if she actually did fondle Moira?
ELISABETH WATERS: No.
MR. DOLAN: Did you ever inquire of Marion whether there was any truth about Moira’s statement that Marion had been touching her breasts when she was in the shower?
ELISABETH WATERS: No, I just told her Moira had said that, and she said that children that age didn’t have erogenous zones.
MR. DOLAN: Did you ask her what she meant by that?
ELISABETH WATERS: No.
MR. DOLAN: Did you find that to be an odd statement by Marion Zimmer Bradley?
MR. BURESH: Object to the question. Instruct the witness not to answer. It’s vague and ambiguous.
MR. DOLAN: I don’t think that is grounds for an instruction not to answer. Are you instructing her not to answer on the grounds of vague and ambiguous?
MR. BURESH: If I object to the question, I can instruct the witness not to answer. If it’s vague and ambiguous and it’s an improper question, I don’t see why the witness should be forced to answer it.
MR. DOLAN: I just want to know if you are instructing the witness not to answer on the grounds of vague and ambiguous?
MR. BURESH: Yes.
MR. DOLAN: Mark it, please. (Whereupon, the previous question was marked for the record.)
MR. DOLAN: Did the statement by Marion Zimmer Bradley that children did not have erogenous zones cause you any concern of any type?
ELISABETH WATERS: No.
MR. DOLAN: Had you ever heard Marion Zimmer Bradley make that statement before?
ELISABETH WATERS: No.
MR. DOLAN: Had you ever heard Marion Zimmer Bradley make any statements to that effect before?
ELISABETH WATERS: No.
MR. DOLAN: Before this time that Moira was in the hospital, had you ever heard anything within the family about allegations that Marion Zimmer Bradley had molested Moira?
ELISABETH WATERS: No.
MR. DOLAN: Other than this statement made by Moira in the hospital that Marion had molested her, have you ever heard or seen or read any allegations of molestation by Moira Breen against her mother Marion Zimmer Bradley?
MR. BURESH: Is there a time frame on this question? I’m sorry, any time up until today?
MR. DOLAN: Yeah.
MR. BURESH: Okay.
ELISABETH WATERS: You mean like the stuff I read last night?
MR. DOLAN: I don’t know.
MR. BURESH: He means anything that’s in your head as of today including the police report that you have reviewed, the Moira documents, the letters that you produced, et cetera, et cetera.
MR. DOLAN: Anything.
ELISABETH WATERS: Well, there were some documents that she produced at the deposition that I sort of skimmed through last night, and I think there was something in there about that, and it was vague and sort of crazy sounding.
MR. DOLAN: Okay. Before last night, had you ever read or heard anything other than just the statement that Moira had made in the hospital that her mother had touched her breasts that in any way alluded to Moira being molested by her mother as a child?
ELISABETH WATERS: No.
MR. DOLAN: So it’s your testimony that prior to yesterday, the only thing you had ever heard regarding Moira Breen having allegations against her mother of molestation was this one statement that her mother had touched her breasts when she was in the shower?
ELISABETH WATERS: Yes.
MR. DOLAN: Did you ever investigate with anyone to find out whether there was any truth to the allegation that Marion Zimmer Bradley had touched Moira Breen’s breasts when she was in the shower?
ELISABETH WATERS: With whom would I have investigated it?
MR. BURESH: Just answer the question.
ELISABETH WATERS: No.
MR. DOLAN: Did you ever talk to Marion about it in any more detail other than the two sentences you indicated that Moira said this and Marion responded back that children don’t have erogenous zones?
ELISABETH WATERS: No.
MR. DOLAN: Okay. Did that satisfy your—strike that. Did you find Marion’s answer to be a satisfactory answer to your question of why did Moira say this?
MR. BURESH: I will object to the question, on the grounds of vague and ambiguous.
MR. DOLAN: Did you ask Marion, “Is there any truth to the allegation that Moira has made that you touched her breasts when she was in the shower”?
ELISABETH WATERS: No, I did not ask her that.
MR. DOLAN: What exactly did you say to Marion?
ELISABETH WATERS: That I had been visiting Moira in the hospital and that Moira had complained that Marion had touched her breasts when she was in the shower once.
MR. DOLAN: Okay. And Marion’s response was that children that age don’t have erogenous zones; is that correct?
ELISABETH WATERS: Yes.
MR. DOLAN: What age did you understand that she was talking about?
ELISABETH WATERS: Nine.
MR. DOLAN:
So do you understand that Moira alleged that Marion had done this when she was about nine?
ELISABETH WATERS: Yes.
MR. DOLAN: How did you come to that understanding?
ELISABETH WATERS: I believe Moira told me.
MR. DOLAN: So what was the full extent of what Moira told you when she talked to you about the alleged act of Marion touching her breasts?
ELISABETH WATERS: She said that when she was about nine she was in the shower and Marion touched her breast.
MR. DOLAN: And that’s what you related to Marion, correct?
ELISABETH WATERS: Yes.
MR. DOLAN: Did you ever have any discussions with Marion, other than the one where Marion said that children of that age don’t have erogenous zones, concerning the molestation or the alleged molestation of Moira?
MR. BURESH: I’m sorry. I’ve got to hear that again.
MR. DOLAN: I’ll do it again.
MR. BURESH: I didn’t get it.
MR. DOLAN: Other than that conversation where you just related to us where you said that Moira had told you that Marion touched her breasts in the shower when she was nine and Marion replied that children that age don’t have erogenous zones, did you ever discuss with Marion Zimmer Bradley at any time up to the present day any allegations of molestation with Moira Breen?
ELISABETH WATERS: By Marion?
MR. DOLAN: Yes.
ELISABETH WATERS: No.
MR. DOLAN: And it’s your testimony that through the present day that the only information up through last night in reading Moira’s information produced at the deposition, that you were aware of any acts of molestation between Marion Zimmer Bradley and Moira Breen; is that correct?
ELISABETH WATERS: To the best of my knowledge and recollection, that’s the only alleged act of molestation of which I have heard prior to last night.
MR. DOLAN: Did you ever read the police reports prior to last night?
ELISABETH WATERS: Yes.
MR. DOLAN: Did you ever read any of those allegations of molestation by Marion Zimmer Bradley against Moira Breen in any of the police reports?
MR. BURESH: Object to the question. You are certainly welcome to show the witness the portions you’re referring to. She said what she said, so you’re assuming facts not in evidence. I have got the police report right here, and we can certainly–
MR. DOLAN: We will go over it later, line by line.
MR. DOLAN: Did anyone ever tell you that Patrick Breen had been molested by Marion Zimmer Bradley?
ELISABETH WATERS: Not exactly.
MR. DOLAN: Okay. Could you explain your answer, please?
ELISABETH WATERS: When the investigation about Kenny was going on, I went to Patrick, who was trying very hard to stay out of this, and asked if Walter had ever molested him, and Patrick said, “No, which is more than I can say for my mother and some of my baby-sitters.”
MR. DOLAN: Anyone else ever make any statements that might have led you to believe that Marion Zimmer Bradley may have molested Patrick Breen?
ELISABETH WATERS: No.
MR. DOLAN: Did you ask Patrick at all what he meant by that statement?
ELISABETH WATERS: No.
MR. DOLAN: Did you find that statement to be at all unusual?
MR. BURESH: Object to the question. I really don’t know what it means. Did she find it to be unusual?
MR. DOLAN: Did you find it an unusual statement that Patrick said “that’s more than I can say about my mother,” when you were asking him the question?
MR. BURESH: Object to the question because the word “unusual” is vague and ambiguous.
MR. DOLAN: You can answer it.
MR. BURESH: Instruct the witness not to answer.
MR. DOLAN: Mark it. (Whereupon, the previous question was marked for the record.)
MR. DOLAN: Did you feel that it was—strike that. Did you have any concerns about Patrick’s statement that that was more than he could say about his mother?
MR. BURESH: Let me hear that again, please.
MR. DOLAN: I’ll do it again. MR. DOLAN: Give me the conversation between you and Patrick again, please, regarding the question of whether Walter had ever molested him and what his response was.
ELISABETH WATERS: I asked if Walter had ever molested him, and he said, “No, which is more than I can say about my mother and some of my baby-sitters.”
MR. DOLAN: Did the fact that he said—did his reply cause you any concern whatsoever that he may have been molested by his mother?
ELISABETH WATERS: Yes.
MR. DOLAN: Okay. Did you inquire to him any further about what he meant by that statement?
ELISABETH WATERS: No.
MR. DOLAN: Did you undertake any investigation whatsoever to determine whether or not Marion Zimmer Bradley had ever molested her son, Patrick?
ELISABETH WATERS: No.
MR. DOLAN: Did you ask Patrick anything more on the subject of whether he was ever molested by his mother?
ELISABETH WATERS: No.
MR. DOLAN: Did you ask Moira about it ever?
ELISABETH WATERS: No.
MR. DOLAN: Did you ask Walter about it ever?
ELISABETH WATERS: When Moira said that Walter raped her when she was five, I asked Walter about that.
MR. DOLAN: But did you ever ask Walter whether or not he had any facts that would lead him to believe that Marion Zimmer Bradley had molested Patrick?
ELISABETH WATERS: No.
MR. DOLAN: And you never asked Marion whether she molested
Patrick; is that correct?
ELISABETH WATERS: No, that is correct, I did not ask her.
MR. DOLAN: Did you ever tell her what Patrick had said?
ELISABETH WATERS: No.
MR. DOLAN: Why not?
MR. BURESH: Objection.
MR. DOLAN: Is there any particular reason why you did not relate what Patrick had told her—told you to Marion Zimmer Bradley?
ELISABETH WATERS: At the time, we were all so traumatized that I didn’t want to add to anybody’s trauma anymore than they were already traumatized, and Patrick was an adult at that point, and whatever Marion may have done to him in the past was clearly over.
MR. DOLAN: Did you have any understanding as to what frame in time that this alleged molestation of Patrick had occurred?
ELISABETH WATERS: No.
MR. DOLAN: Did you ask anyone to find out or—strike that. Did you ask Patrick how old he was when this alleged molestation occurred?
ELISABETH WATERS: No.
MR. DOLAN: So you did nothing further to inquire about this alleged act of molestation by Marion Zimmer Bradley against Patrick; is that correct?
ELISABETH WATERS: That’s correct.
MR. DOLAN: Other than the allegation by Moira and Patrick that Marion molested them, did anyone else to your knowledge ever make any allegation that Marion Zimmer Bradley had molested them?
ELISABETH WATERS: No.
MR. DOLAN: Did you ever make any statement to Moira Breen that Marion Zimmer Bradley had molested both of you?
ELISABETH WATERS: No. I was 25 when I met her.
MR. BURESH: No, just answer the question.
ELISABETH WATERS: No.
MR. DOLAN: Did you ever make any statement to Moira Breen that if she had had the opportunity, she would jump in bed with her mother again?
ELISABETH WATERS: No.
MR. DOLAN: Now, you indicated that Moira also had told you at some point that she had been raped by her father when she was five; is that correct?
ELISABETH WATERS: Yes.
MR. DOLAN: When did she tell you that?
ELISABETH WATERS: After the investigation with Kenny started.
MR. DOLAN: What did she tell you about suffering rape at the hands of her father?
ELISABETH WATERS: She said that she was five years old, and it was his birthday and that he said she was his birthday present, and he raped her.
MR. DOLAN: When did she tell you that, approximately what time fr
ame, as best you can, month and year?
ELISABETH WATERS: October, November. I don’t know. Sometime in ’89.
MR. DOLAN: And did you do anything to investigate the truthfulness of that statement?
ELISABETH WATERS: I asked Walter.
MR. DOLAN: What did Walter tell you?
ELISABETH WATERS: He denied it.
MR. DOLAN: Please tell me the full substance of the conversation as best you can recall?
ELISABETH WATERS: I asked if it was true that he raped Moira when she was five, and he said, “No, of course not,” and that she was a liar, and I said," But isn’t that the period of your life you don’t remember much of? " And he said, “yes.”
MR. DOLAN: Did you ever ask Marion about Moira allegations that Walter had raped her?
ELISABETH WATERS: No.
MR. DOLAN: Did you ever discuss Moira’s allegation that Walter had raped her with Marion Zimmer Bradley?
ELISABETH WATERS: I think Moira told her sometime, a couple of months later.
MR. BURESH: That’s not the question he asked you.
ELISABETH WATERS: I’m sorry.
MR. DOLAN: Did you ever discuss it?
ELISABETH WATERS: I don’t think so.
MR. DOLAN: Has Moira ever recounted to you any other episodes of sexual abuse that she suffered at the hands of either her mother or her father other than the ones you have identified?
ELISABETH WATERS: Not that I recall.
MR. DOLAN: Are you aware of any—strike that.
Are you aware of what the term “satanic ritual abuse” means?
ELISABETH WATERS: I believe so, yes.
MR. DOLAN: Has Moira Breen ever told you that she believes that she was a victim of satanic ritual abuse?
ELISABETH WATERS: Yes.
MR. BURESH: I would like the witness to define what she means by “satanic ritual.” I don’t know what the term means exactly. I would like to make sure, for the record, that both questioner and answerer are talking about the same thing.
MR. DOLAN: What do you understand satanic ritual abuse to be?
ELISABETH WATERS: People who worship Satan who, as part of their ritual, abuse children or, I suppose, adults would count too.
MR. DOLAN: Have you ever worshipped Satan?
ELISABETH WATERS: No.
MR. DOLAN: Have you ever observed any satanic rituals?
ELISABETH WATERS: No.
MR. DOLAN: Have you ever participated in any satanic worship services?