The Last Closet_The Dark Side of Avalon
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ELISABETH WATERS: She told him she didn’t want him on the property.
MR. DOLAN: Do you know if he ever came back to the property at Green Walls?
ELISABETH WATERS: Yes, he did. She calmed down later or something, I guess.
MR. DOLAN: Did you have any understanding as to why Marion Zimmer Bradley would permit this gentleman who pled guilty to child molestation back on her property?
ELISABETH WATERS: Well, he was her ex-husband and the father of her two young children, and she was, after all, fond of him. He used to come over in the afternoons and have a cup of tea with her, but he didn’t bring other people with him after that.
MR. DOLAN: After the allegations of Ken Smith came up, did you ever discuss with Walter his molestation of any other children?
ELISABETH WATERS: No.
MR. DOLAN: After the allegations of molestation with Ken Smith came up, did you ever discuss with Walter the allegations of molestation of Ken Smith?
ELISABETH WATERS: I asked him if he was true, and he didn’t deny it.
MR. DOLAN: Anything else?
ELISABETH WATERS: Practically every word I said to him on the subject of sex is in the police report.
MR. BURESH: Would you like to review that in order to answer the question?
MR. DOLAN: She hasn’t indicate she cannot remember. The only reason to have her review something is to refresh her recollection. I don’t—I’m not going to allow her to review documents at your direction at this time.
ELISABETH WATERS: Okay. First, I asked him why his bank account was overdrawn, and he said he had written a check for $5,000 to hire a lawyer because Officer Harris wanted to talk to him, and at that point I began to really seriously believe he was guilty of the accusations made about his behavior with Kenny. A couple of days later I asked him if he really performed oral sex on Kenny, and he said, “yes.” No, actually he asked me who told me, and I said Mary Mason did, and he said he didn’t know she was talking about it, and I said, “Well, she did to me.” So he didn’t actually say, yes, but he didn’t deny it. And then sometime later, I forgot how the subject originally came up, but I said, “How could you do that to an 11 year old?” And Walter said, “He was 12.”
MR. DOLAN: Anything else?
ELISABETH WATERS: You mean like his exact words?
MR. DOLAN: Correct.
ELISABETH WATERS: “He was 12 and besides he wasn’t a virgin.”
MR. DOLAN: Okay. Anything else that he said that you can recall in any of these three conversations regarding whether or not he actually molested Ken Smith?
ELISABETH WATERS: Well, he seemed to think that it didn’t matter because Kenny didn’t care about it and Mary didn’t care about it; that it was okay because Kenny and Mary didn’t object. (Whereupon, a recess was taken.)
MR. DOLAN: Back on the record, please. MR. DOLAN: Did Walter, in his documentation, indicate that he corresponded with Marion Zimmer Bradley from the mid ’60s up until the point of their marriage? Do you know if any of those letters are still in existence?
ELISABETH WATERS: Not to my knowledge.
MR. DOLAN: If they did exist, do you know where they would be kept as far as the structure of Marion’s home?
ELISABETH WATERS: Yes, in the files that I went through to prepare for the document production.
MR. DOLAN: Did you see any such documents as those when you were looking through those files?
ELISABETH WATERS: No.
MR. DOLAN: Who was Vince Morgante?
ELISABETH WATERS: I don’t know.
MR. DOLAN: Do you know why he was receiving $50 payments from Walter each month when you were paying Walter’s bills?
ELISABETH WATERS: No.
MR. DOLAN: Do you know who Margaret was that was referred to on the rental receipts?
ELISABETH WATERS: Which rental receipts?
MR. DOLAN: It says, “Davis, Margaret.” Is that Margaret Davis, or do you know who that relates to there?
ELISABETH WATERS: Yes, I know who Margaret Davis is, but what rental receipts are we talking about?
MR. DOLAN: It says, “Rental receipts; Davis, Margaret; rent x/i 75.”
ELISABETH WATERS: Oh, she and Kristoph were living with Walter, and they were paying part of the rent.
MR. DOLAN: She was Margaret Davis then; that’s her full name?
ELISABETH WATERS: Yes, Margaret Davis.
MR. DOLAN: Do you know where Margaret Davis lives now?
ELISABETH WATERS: With Kristoph Klover. They’re married.
MR. DOLAN: Okay, and you gave me a place where you thought they were living earlier; where was that again?
ELISABETH WATERS: Truman Avenue in Oakland.
MR. DOLAN: Do you know who Joan Sandberg is?
ELISABETH WATERS: Joan Sandberg, was she one of Moira’s therapists?
MR. DOLAN: Well–
MR. BURESH: He’s asking you if you know, and if you don’t know, just say you don’t know.
ELISABETH WATERS: The name sounds familiar, but I don’t remember offhand.
MR. DOLAN: There’s some payments to a Joan Sandberg included in this documentation. I was just wondering if you knew who that was?
ELISABETH WATERS: Where are they?
MR. DOLAN: On the next page, “Sandberg, Joan.” It begins with “cash” at the top of the document. I don’t want to touch your documents. This next page here, down at the bottom, second paragraph up, third—fourth line up.
ELISABETH WATERS: Okay, that would be Moira. That would be one of Moira’s therapists. And from the coding on Vince Morgante, he must have been some doctor Walter was seeing.
MR. DOLAN: Did Marion Zimmer Bradley keep a journal as far as you know?
ELISABETH WATERS: No.
MR. DOLAN: Do you know if she kept any documentation regarding the allegations against Walter of pedophilia?
ELISABETH WATERS: No.
MR. DOLAN: When you were first made aware that there might have been some sort of a problem with Walter molesting Ken Smith?
ELISABETH WATERS: When I talked to Mary at the Worldcon.
MR. DOLAN: Had you heard from Moira, or anybody before, that there had been a report made to the police?
ELISABETH WATERS: Yes.
MR. DOLAN: When did you first hear that there might have been some molestation of Ken Smith?
ELISABETH WATERS: Well, I heard that Moira had told the therapist who told the police sometime in July.
MR. DOLAN: How did you learn that?
ELISABETH WATERS: I don’t remember, somebody must have—I think maybe Marion told me.
MR. DOLAN: Did Moira ever call you directly to tell you that?
ELISABETH WATERS: Not that I recall.
MR. DOLAN: Do you ever recall Moira trying to get in touch with Marion to talk about this issue and you preventing her from doing so?
ELISABETH WATERS: If Moira called Marion and I didn’t let her talk to Marion, it would have been because Marion wasn’t home. I was not in the habit of coming between the children and their mother.
MR. DOLAN: So is it your testimony that you first heard about the molestation of Ken Smith from Marion Zimmer Bradley?
ELISABETH WATERS: To the best of my belief, I first heard about the allegation that Kenny had been molested from Marion, yes.
MR. DOLAN: Do you know how Marion had learned of it?
ELISABETH WATERS: From Moira, I assume.
MR. DOLAN: Please don’t assume.
ELISABETH WATERS: Sorry.
MR. DOLAN: Do you have any knowledge as to how Marion learned about this?
ELISABETH WATERS: I believe she said Moira had told her.
MR. DOLAN: Did you ever talk to Moira directly about the report of molestation of Ken Smith at any time prior to first speaking to the police about it—you first speaking to the police about it?
ELISABETH WATERS: I wrote to her, but I didn’t speak to her. She moved, and I didn’t have her phone number, and she wasn’t speaking to me.
&nbs
p; MR. DOLAN: Did you say the first time you ever talked to Mary Mason about it was at the Worldcon?
ELISABETH WATERS: Aside from the phone call telling her that the police wanted to talk to Kenny. The first time I talked to her about the actual molestation was at the Worldcon, yes.
MR. DOLAN: When did you talk to her about the police wanting to talk to Kenny?
ELISABETH WATERS: That must have been sometime in July.
MR. DOLAN: Who would you have spoken to regarding the molestation prior to talking to Mary Mason in July?
ELISABETH WATERS: I really don’t remember. All I remember is that somebody told me that the police wanted to talk to Kenny, and since I’m the person in the family who’s organized enough to be able to look in the SFWA directory which had Mary’s phone number, I got delegated to call Mary and tell her the police were looking for her kid.
MR. DOLAN: Did you have any understanding is to why the police were looking for her at that time?
ELISABETH WATERS: Because Moira said that Walter was molesting him.
MR. DOLAN: And you learned that Moira said that Walter was molesting him from whom?
ELISABETH WATERS: I believe it was from Marion.
MR. DOLAN: And who did you learn—who was it that you learned from—who was it–
ELISABETH WATERS: From whom.
MR. DOLAN:—from whom did you learn that the police wanted to talk to Kenny?
ELISABETH WATERS: I don’t remember.
MR. DOLAN: Had you talked to the police at that time at that point prior to calling Mary Mason?
ELISABETH WATERS: No.
MR. DOLAN: How did you know that the police wanted to talk to Mary Mason or Kenny?
ELISABETH WATERS: I believe Marion must have told me.
MR. DOLAN: Did you have any understanding at the time where Ken Smith was?
ELISABETH WATERS: With Walter.
MR. DOLAN: Okay. Prior to the call from—or from learning from whoever that there had been an allegation that Walter was molesting Ken, did you know that Ken was with Walter?
ELISABETH WATERS: I don’t believe so.
MR. DOLAN: Did someone tell you that Ken was with Walter?
ELISABETH WATERS: At some point around the time of WesterCon, or right before or right after, somebody said that Kenny was going with Walter to Disneyland after the convention and was going to stay with Walter for a month. And then right after the convention, Moira came out with these accusations and nobody seemed to know where Kenny and Walter were, so I called Mary assuming that she, at least, would know where her child was, and then that was about all I heard until I ran into Mary at Worldcon in September.
MR. DOLAN: Who was it that told you that Kenny and Walter were going to spend a month together?
ELISABETH WATERS: I don’t remember.
MR. DOLAN: Do you have any recollection whatsoever of how you came to understand that?
ELISABETH WATERS: No.
MR. DOLAN: But you knew that before Moira had said that Kenny was being molested, correct?
ELISABETH WATERS: I think so. I’m not positive.
MR. DOLAN: Did someone tell you to call Mary Mason?
ELISABETH WATERS: I believe Marion did.
MR. DOLAN: Can you tell me everything you can recall about the conversation where Marion informed you that Walter had been accused of molesting Ken?
ELISABETH WATERS: Marion said that Moira had blown the whistle on her father, and I looked at her blankly, and I said, “For what?” And she said that Moira was saying that Walter was molesting Kenny, and then I guess she said the police wanted to talk—were looking for Kenny and nobody knew where to find him, so I got my SFWA directory, and I called Mary Mason.
MR. DOLAN: Did you ask Marion whether she thought it could be true?
ELISABETH WATERS: No, she didn’t sound as if she thought it were true.
MR. DOLAN: Okay. Did you have any further discussions with her regarding Walter and the molestation of Kenny or any other children at that time?
ELISABETH WATERS: Not until she got back in October.
MR. DOLAN: So Walter, who was a tenant of yours, as well as her ex-husband, had been accused of molesting a child, correct?
ELISABETH WATERS: Yes.
MR. DOLAN: And the only conversation that occurred between the two of you was Marion saying that Moira had blown the whistle on Walter and had accused him of molesting Kenny; is that correct?
MR. BURESH: Object to the question as being augmentative and asked and answered. If you want to ask the question again, go ahead.
ELISABETH WATERS: Yeah, that was pretty much what I remember. You know, this was–
MR. BURESH: You have answered the question.
ELISABETH WATERS:—this was a long time ago.
MR. DOLAN: You spoke to Mary Mason, what did you say to her?
ELISABETH WATERS: Just that the police wanted to talk to Kenny.
MR. DOLAN: Did you tell her why?
ELISABETH WATERS: I believe so.
MR. DOLAN: Do you recall what you said to her in that regard?
ELISABETH WATERS: I think I said that the police thought that Walter was molesting Kenny, and they wanted to talk to Kenny and–
MR. DOLAN: Did you say anything else to her?
ELISABETH WATERS: No.
MR. DOLAN: Did Mary say anything to you?
ELISABETH WATERS: “Okay.”
MR. DOLAN: Did she tell you where she thought Kenny was?
ELISABETH WATERS: No.
MR. DOLAN: Did you have any further conversation with her at that time?
ELISABETH WATERS: No, I think, as I recall she just said, “okay,” and hung up.
MR. DOLAN: Did you try and locate Walter?
ELISABETH WATERS: Did I try and locate Walter?
MR. DOLAN: Uh-hum.
ELISABETH WATERS: No, I had no way of locating Walter.
MR. DOLAN: Did you talk to Walter at all after—did Walter call or anything?
ELISABETH WATERS: No.
MR. BURESH: Well, let’s get the time frame down.
MR. DOLAN: That day, did you talk to Walter at all?
ELISABETH WATERS: No, Walter didn’t turn up at home for another couple of weeks, I think.
MR. DOLAN: Did you undertake any activity to try to locate Walter in the couple of weeks before he returned home?
ELISABETH WATERS: No.
MR. DOLAN: Were you at all concerned that Walter might be molesting this child?
ELISABETH WATERS: It was my understanding that once I had told his mother that the police wanted to talk to him, and she had acknowledged receipt of this information, that she would take steps to remove her child from Walter’s custody and talk to the police, and certainly that’s what any reasonable parent would do.
MR. DOLAN: Did you have any reasons—the question was, did you have any concerns after receiving this information that Walter was molesting Kenny?
ELISABETH WATERS: No, I assumed that Mary had removed him from Walter’s presence immediately.
MR. DOLAN: Did you ever talk to Ken about the alleged acts of molestation by Walter at that time?
ELISABETH WATERS: I have never talked to Ken at all.
MR. DOLAN: Did you ever talk to Moira about it; after her mother told you Moira has blown the whistle, did you ever call Moira up and say, what’s going on here or anything?
ELISABETH WATERS: No.
MR. DOLAN: Did you undertake any investigation, other than calling Ken Smith’s mother, to find out whether or not these allegations were true between the time that you were first notified of it by Marion Zimmer Bradley and the time that Walter returned home several weeks later?
ELISABETH WATERS: No, the police were investigating.
MR. DOLAN: Did you talk to Raul about it at all?
25 ELISABETH WATERS: I might have, quite possibly. I talked to Raul a lot.
MR. DOLAN: Is Raul an ex-police officer?
ELISABETH WATERS: Yes.
MR. DOLAN: Did Raul
give any advice as to how to handle the situation?
ELISABETH WATERS: When I found out that Walter really had molested Kenny, and I wanted to go running straight down and tell Officer Harris everything I knew; Raul told me to wait until she got to me and not impede the flow of her investigation, and that’s why I kept the journal for her.
MR. DOLAN: Did you talk to Camille at all on the day that you heard that Walter was molesting—may be molesting Kenny?
MR. BURESH: Without disclosing any content of any conversation with Camille.
ELISABETH WATERS: I’m sorry, did I talk to Camille when?
MR. DOLAN: LeGrand, on the day that you were informed that Moira had blown the whistle on Walter?
ELISABETH WATERS: No.
MR. DOLAN: Did you ever talk to her at any time between the time that you were informed that Walter might be molesting Kenny and the time that you talked to the police?
MR. BURESH: Again, without divulging the content of any communications.
ELISABETH WATERS: I’m just trying to remember the timeline. Yes, I did, because by that time Marion was back and filing for divorce.
MR. DOLAN: Okay. Is it your understanding that Marion was filing for divorce before you spoke to the police?
ELISABETH WATERS: Yes.
MR. DOLAN: Did anyone instruct you that you should keep diaries during that time period?
ELISABETH WATERS: No.
MR. DOLAN: Did anyone review those diaries prior to your handing them to the police?
ELISABETH WATERS: No.
MR. DOLAN: Did you show them to Raul?
ELISABETH WATERS: I don’t believe so. I might have, but I don’t remember that I did.
MR. DOLAN: Did you show them to your lawyer?
MR. BURESH: Objection, calls for attorney/client communication.
MR. DOLAN: Well, she said she didn’t prepare them at the request of her attorney or for her attorney. I’m just asking if she showed it to her attorney; that’s
all I want to know. MR. DOLAN: Did you show them?
MR. BURESH: Then it becomes an attorney/client communication, so don’t answer the question.
MR. DOLAN: Did you show them to anybody prior to showing them to the police?
MR. BURESH: Other than an attorney.
ELISABETH WATERS: To the best of my recollection, no.
MR. DOLAN: When did you first speak with the police?