Mavericks of the Mind: Conversations with Terence McKenna, Allen Ginsberg, Timothy Leary, John Lilly, Carolyn Mary Kleefeld, Laura Huxley, Robert Anton Wilson, and others…

by Brown, David Jay

  LAURA Yes, and in Between Heaven and Earth as well. And I add the dimension of service because service is what gives significance to the self by confirming its importance to the world. The relationship of body-mind and service should be addressed at the same time. In my mind, body-mind-service is the ideal education. I would not call it therapy- that would be an implicit agreement that a person interested and active in improving him/herself is sick. What I'm saying has been admirably and fully presented in the monumental book by Michael Murphy which has just been published, The Future of the Body. Michael Murphy who, with Dick Price, founded Esalen, being acquainted with all the greatest world teachers and their methods, realized that every teacher promotes a certain set of values while others are either neglected or suppressed. Murphy coins the phrase "Integral Practices," which I quote, "are practices that address somatic, affective, cognitive, volitional and transpersonal dimensions of human nature in a comprehensive way." A very important book.

  RMN: Do you think there is too much attention given to the individual in our society?

  LAURA It seems to be so. Had we the kind of education just mentioned, we would realize that we are little cells in an immense, inextricably connected organism and would not pollute the very source of our life: the air we breathe, the water, the food. We would pay more attention to the way other human beings are and feel. Service gives us a chance to be aware of that. Karen, my seventeen year-old granddaughter, just returned from a white water expedition, programmed according to the principles of Outward Bound, the greatest educational institution in the U.S.A., in my opinion. Karen told me that one day of the trip was dedicated to serve another person, who did not know who the serving person was; finding out would be the subject of the evening discussion. Karen said that she never had experienced in a group of teenagers such a profound peace, such quiet contentment. It is encouraging that a simple, inexpensive recipe is so effective; that teenagers, whose personal drama is so intense, can forget it for a day, and experience peace and contentment by serving.

  RMN: What foundation needs to be laid for the spiritual to emerge?

  LAURA The spiritual dimension of the human being is ever present, but often dormant, and emerges of itself as a natural consequence when we are ready--not as a goal to be reached. Spirituality has to have space to emerge; a flower cannot grow if overcrowded by weeds. Give it space and the flower will bloom on its own. When the body-mind has been attended to, then, as a flower free of weeds, the Higher Self will naturally emerge and service is part of its expression.

  DJB: So you don't draw much of a line then between the body, mind, and spirit?

  LAURA Right. It is a continuum.

  RMN: Have the techniques that you discuss in your books--movement techniques and ritual---been used by psychologists or psychiatrists that you are aware of?

  LAURA In 1963, when Target was published, there was much demand to organize a national network for teachers. I resisted the temptation; I did not know how to organize, and above all, my life was full enough. The recipes are used by some therapists, sometimes classes are organized. Mostly people use them from the book--I had and have the most rewarding and touching reports of experiences from the letters I receive from friends I have never met who profit from the Recipes for Living and Loving.

  RMN: Do you think that the methods you employ would be beneficial to a person with a serious imbalance like paranoid schizophrenia?

  LAURA The Huxley Institute and the American Association of Orthomolecular Medicine have, since 1957, conducted studies on schizophrenia and have demonstrated that specific nutritional supplements, like Vitamin B3 and B6, Vitamin C, Zinc, and others are extremely helpful and, in certain types of schizophrenia, have brought recovery. I believe that a schizophrenic person would be greatly helped by being grounded through exercise, particularly if he would understand the principle I mentioned before: to exorcise, to cast off devils by exercise. Often a disturbed person thinks and feels that he or she is persecuted or invaded by dangerous vibrations, enemies or devils.

  A method that he can use independently not only would ground him but also would give him that power he so desperately seeks so that he himself can get rid of his persecutors. He could not only feel, but even visualize the devils coming out of his muscles--move his muscles, and since he is the only one who can, he would achieve autonomy and self-authority. Of course this would not always happen, but why not give it a trial--particularly with the mesomorphic type; the person with a prevalence of musculature might feel a liberation by using himself in a self-beneficial way; of course, alert supervision is essential.

  RMN: This is going into the next question. Many psychotherapeutic techniques are considered by orthodox practitioners to be in the realm of the paranormal, even though many have been shown to be successful. Why do you think there is so much nervousness on the part of scientists to investigate, not only the paranormal phenomena, but also alternative healing techniques?

  LAURA An investment, whether intellectual or financial, gives us security. Scientists protect their investment of years of study and work. When something new and different emerges, this does not mean that the previous work loses its value. So in a way, the resistance you speak of is the fear of being wrong, is that way of thinking in separate camps, of "either/or" rather than considering what can be valuable in more than one view--normal and paranormal, orthodox, and alternative healing technique. We can use everything in this complex life we are living.

  DJB: One of the things that brings the body-mind problem to attention is psychedelics. How have psychedelics affected your life?

  LAURA It was an expansion. I wrote about it in a book about Aldous--This Timeless Moment. It was something that gave me a larger view. Psychedelics open our hearts and minds. Sometimes we open on the aesthetic level, sometimes on the level of compassion--the feeling of compassion, and the beauty of the world, as well as the gigantic suffering in the world. This is the way in which they affected me. Probably a psychedelic emphasizes what is in an individual and amplifies it. But we are a crowd, and which one of the crowd will be amplified? We don't know.

  DJB: That leads to the mistake a lot of people made when they first started experimenting with psychedelics. Because they saw their own positive qualities get amplified, they assumed that anyone who did a psychedelic would become more creative, more compassionate, more loving, and it just doesn't work that way. It takes whatever is there and amplifies it.

  LAURA Yes. I remember very well when we realized that. Aldous and I were very, very surprised when we heard from Boston that there were many negative experiences. We always prepared very carefully, which makes a great difference. In general, if you take a psychedelic without preparation, it's risky. I know many kids do it, and sometimes it's okay, but then comes a time when it's not okay any more, and it's difficult for many reasons, one being that what is ingested can be any chemical mix.

  RMN: Of the people who know about the benefits of psychedelics, some believe that it should be made legal and everyone should have access to it. Other people think there should be some kind of restriction imposed. What do you think?

  LAURA I think that if we had it all completely free again, abuse and damage would happen. That is why Oscar Janiger founded the Albert Hofmann Foundation, which I am a part of--so that there is some beginning, at least, in being able to use and guard from misuse. If there is a beginning, even with strict rules, then little by little, one can enlarge them. But I think that if everybody can get everything that would not be a just way of doing it.

  RMN: If it were restricted to begin with, who should decide who can take the substance and who cannot? What are the qualities and qualifications such a person should possess?

  LAURA That is the question. First of all, one would have to have experienced it oneself, and one should not try to get any gain from this at all. One's own opinions and personality should be put aside, at least as much as possible. It is difficult to put them aside all together, but one can try
to put them aside as much as possible. If you are asking about the role of the guide, probably it is easier to say what the guide must not do: not patronize, not preach, not impose, not do nothing, not come to quick conclusions, not deny intuition, not believe intuition as if it were God dictated, not deny common sense, not deny evidence, not accept evidence only, not be intensely personal, not be intensely impersonal, not be only masculine, not be only feminine.

  DJB: Is that not the same as the role of any guide or teacher?

  LAURA Yes. However, if you refer to a period of therapy in general rather than one single psychedelic experience, I would add that, in the beginning, the guide dances with the student, imperceptibly, now and then, exchanging leadership. After a while, the guide dances the student's dance, but adds to it an higher octave and a rock-strong basso continuo. Dovetailed between the two, the student is supported and inspired in leading his own dance. Finally, strong and free, the student soars alone to new heights. Let me immediately add that all this is easier said than done, but I followed that famous quote of Browning even before I knew it: "Ah, but a man's reach should exceed his grasp, or what's heaven for?" It's a bit tiring at times to stretch like that, but it gives life a fascinating flavor.

  DJB: What role do you see psychedelics playing in the future?

  LAURA That is almost like asking: what do you see for the future of this planet? We are at a point where just about anything can happen. If the negative happens, the psychedelics will have a bad role to play because many people will get sick on it. If what we tried to do-to encourage consciousness and responsibility-begins to happen, then psychedelics would be a help. Finally, it is the interplay between the outer stimuli which continuously effect us and our reaction to them--and to what extent are we responsible for our reactions? We can say I am 100% responsible, and that is a lovely thought.

  But how much of the 100% is our destiny and how much is our personal will? And when do we follow our destiny and when do we follow our personal will? I think it is lucky that such a question, it seems to me, cannot be answered totally, because should I believe that i am totally at the mercy of my destiny, then I may become lethargic and be just a leaf in the wind. On the other hand, should I believe that I have full powers over my destiny, I would become a harsh judge of others who would appear to me to be just drifting. Years ago, I tried to devise a recipe entitled Be What You Are which was based on a line of Shakespeare. "Who is he who can tell me who I am?" I tried hard but never succeeded. I believe in the perfectibility of the human race and in the support we can give each other in evolving. But that is all I believe.

  RMN: Do you believe that people who have seen further, and have more awareness, have a responsibility to others?

  LAURA Absolutely yes. Those of us who have been given more gifts certainly have a responsibility for others.

  DJB: If you could sum up the central message that you got from the time you spent with Aldous, what would you say that you learned from him?

  LAURA He said it himself. I can do no better than what he said. It was at this important meeting of outstanding scientists in Santa Barbara. Everyone was very serious, and they said, well, Mr. Huxley, what is your final advice after all these years of inquiry? He said, “I’m very embarrassed because I worked for forty years, I studied everything around, I did experiments, I went to several countries, and all I can tell you is to be just a little kinder to each other.”

  DJB: That takes a lot of learning.

  LAURA You're absolutely right. It takes a lot of learning and living and loving and suffering.

  DJB: It seems obvious but it's not.

  LAURA Often the obvious things are the ones that are the most difficult to understand and appreciate. It seems obvious that we breathe. You know we do breathe, but do we understand it? Do we appreciate it? No---we only begin to appreciate it when we suffocate.

  DJB: How do you think the LSD that Aldous asked for as he was dying influenced his dying process?

  LAURA It went so smoothly. He did ask for it and he knew exactly what he was doing. It is my belief that it made it very easy for him. This doesn't mean that it would make it easy for everybody else. Remember that this is, again, the process of one person--a person who had prepared himself for this event throughout his life. He asked for it at the right time, too, just six hours before he died. He asked for a big sheet of paper; he evidently knew that he could not handle small handwriting. Then he wrote his own recipe: "Try LSD 100 mm intramuscular." During the week prior to his death, I had been thinking that maybe I should mention it. I was alert as to when he was going to ask me for it. It was not until that moment, at about 11:00. Then he died about 5:00.

  DJB: I read in one of your books that people seem to have two basic approaches to death. Some want to die in their sleep, and go as unconsciously as possible. Others see it as an adventure, and want to go as lucid and aware as possible.

  LAURA Yes, that's right. Probably one of the reasons is whether one is naturally afraid to be unconscious or not. It seems to me at this point in my life, when I'm feeling good, my choice would be to be very conscious, aware of this process that must be fantastic. But it is easy to speak this way when you're alive and well. It is easy to speak this way when you are not in agonizing pain, when you're not undergoing the division of the body from its vitalizing essence. So I do not know what I would say then. But today I feel this way. What is the date today? Write down the time and date, because I may change my mind.

  DJB: What do you think happens to human consciousness after death?

  LAURA I think and feel that it goes on. I can't imagine that this extraordinary complex of feeling, thought, and whatever else, just vanishes. I believe that it goes on; but how is a mystery. Perhaps it goes on into vibrations, or into other bodies, or into something totally different and unknown to us.

  DJB: I read about the medium and the bookcase experience that you wrote about at the end of This Timeless Moment; that suggested the possibility of contact with Aldous after he had passed on into the afterlife.

  LAURA That was extraordinary wasn't it? I never speak about that because I wrote it with such exactness. I think that if I were to speak about it, I would not remember the moment, the time, and all that exactly. What I have written is absolutely correct.

  DJB: Have you had any other experiences where you felt the presence of Aldous after he had died?

  LAURA I went to one or two other mediums who also gave me a very strong presence, but not like that one. That one was...

  DJB: Uncanny.

  LAURA That's right.

  RMN: Would you describe yourself as a religious person?

  LAURA It depends on what you mean by religion. I don't know exactly. What does religion mean anyway?

  RMN: In Latin it means "to be tied back," the idea being that one's spirit is bound to God in some way. I guess you can interpret God however you want.

  LAURA Well, I eat God every day when I have a meal.

  RMN: Okay, let's put it another way. What's your personal understanding of God, apart from food?

  LAURA I think--I feel--that there is an immense power; something that is so incredible that we cannot even imagine it--it has so much more imagination than we have. So that when we imagine God, we just imagine as far as we can imagine. But our imagination is very limited when you think of all the flowers and stars. You think of a star, and you think of a cell, and it's mind-boggling.

  DJB: Yeah, we can't even grasp ourselves, let alone a supreme being of cosmic proportions.

  LAURA Exactly. How can we grapple with God when we don't even understand the simplest of things? I don't even know what goes on when I speak to you, or how you hear and how you interpret what you hear and how this influences what I am going to say, etc., etc.

  RMN: Why do you think that people get so hyped up about religion, which causes so much war and devastation? Why do people get so worked up about trying to prove one god against another god?

  LAURA I think that we've c
ome once again to a basic problem: fear. Suppose that a person has been worshipping a certain god with millions of other people. That gives security. It is like saying, "Millions of us cannot be wrong; we have the best god." These persons' security is threatened by the possibility that there is another and a better god, the possibility that "Maybe I am wrong." It's again the fear, the fear of being wrong. Of course, I may be wrong; who isn't? But being wrong could be grist for the mill--the possibility of discovery. The greatest blessing of all time would be the presence of a Genius of Love who could diminish the Global Fear even a little bit. Fear is the most widespread, malignant, infectious disease.