Protagoras and Meno
Page 14
MENO: No. I suppose you're right.
SOCRATES: In that case, you'd better answer the question again, from the top: What do you think being good is – you and your mate Gorgias?
MENO: You know, people kept telling me, Socrates, even before I met you, that all you do is go around being baffled by things [80 a] and baffling everyone else. And now that I've met you, sure enough, I feel as though you're bewitching me, and jinxing me, and casting some strange spell over me, to the point where I'm about as baffled as can be. You know what I think? Just to tease you a little – I think that you're exactly like that flat-faced numbfish.27 You certainly look like a numbfish, and you're just the same in other ways as well: because you know what a numbfish does? It makes anyone that gets too close and touches it, go numb; and that's pretty much what I think you've done to me. My mind and my tongue have literally gone numb. I've got no idea how to answer the [b] question. And yet, damn it, I've talked about ‘being a good man’ thousands of times. I've made countless claims about it, time and again, in front of loads of people, and perfectly good claims, too – or so I thought at the time. But now I can't even say what it is. I haven't got the faintest idea! If you ask me, you're making a smart decision in not going on any trips away from Athens, or living abroad; because if you did this sort of thing in some other city, as a foreigner, you'd probably be locked up for being a wizard.
SOCRATES: Oh, that's very crafty, Meno. I almost fell for it.
MENO: Fell for what, Socrates?
[c] SOCRATES: I know exactly why you compared me to a numbfish.
MENO: Why?
SOCRATES: To get me to compare you to something in return.
That's one thing I've learned about all beautiful people: oh, they just love it when you tell them what they look like. It's all right for them; because of course beautiful people are always told they resemble beautiful things. Well, sorry: I'm not going to compare you to anything. And as for me – unless a numbfish feels numb itself when it makes other people feel numb, then I'm not like a numbfish. Because it's not as if I've got all the answers myself when I baffle other people. I only make other people feel baffled by being more baffled than anyone myself. Take our question about what exactly being [d] good is: I certainly don't know the answer, and that's why you… well, maybe you knew before you ‘touched’ me, but right now you're very like a man who doesn't know. Of course, I'm still willing to look into it with you; I still want the two of us to try to find out what it is.
MENO: But how can you try to find out about something, Socrates, if you ‘haven't got the faintest idea’ what it is? I mean, how can you put before your mind a thing that you have no knowledge of, in order to try to find out about it? And even supposing you did come across it, how would you know that that was it, if you didn't know what it was to begin with?
[e] SOCRATES: Ah, I see what you're getting at, Meno. See what you're doing? You're bringing in that famous quibbler's argument, the one that says that it's impossible to try to find out about anything – either what you know or what you don't know. ‘You can't try to find out about something you know about, because you know about it, in which case there's no point trying to find out about it; and you can't try to find out about something you don't know about, either, because then you don't even know what it is you're trying to find out about.’28
MENO: And you don't think that's a good argument, Socrates? [81 a]
SOCRATES: Nope.
MENO: Can you tell me why not?
SOCRATES: Yes, I can. It's because I've listened to certain men and women, people who know all about the world of the gods…
MENO: Saying what? What claim did they make?
SOCRATES: A claim, in my view, that was as beautiful as it was true.
MENO: What claim? What people?
SOCRATES: Well, the people who make the claim are all those priests and priestesses who've taken the trouble to be able to explain the basis of their religious practices. And Pindar29 says the same thing, and so do lots of other poets – all the [b] ones inspired by the gods. And what they say is this (you decide if you think that what they say is true): they say that a person's soul can never die; that sometimes it comes to an end – most people call it ‘dying’ – and sometimes it comes back into being, but that it's never destroyed. And that's why we've got to live the whole of our lives as religiously as we possibly can. Because only those
who've paid Persephone the price,
for the pain, for the grief, of long ago30 –
theirs are the souls that she sends,
when the ninth year comes,
back to the sun-lit world above.
And from those souls, proud-hearted kings will rise, [c]
and the swift and strong, and the wisest of the wise.
And people, for the rest of time,
will hail them as heroes, to be held in awe.
So, since the soul can never die, and has been born over and over again, and has already seen what there is in this world, and what there is in the world beyond – i.e. absolutely everything – there's nothing it hasn't already learned about. So it wouldn't be at all surprising if it managed to remember things, the things it used to know, either about being good or about anything else. Because if the whole of nature is akin, [d] and your soul has already learned and understood everything, there's no reason why you shouldn't be able, after remembering just one thing – most people call it ‘learning’ – to go on and figure out everything else, as long as you're adventurous and don't get tired of trying to find out about things; in fact, ‘finding out about things’ and ‘learning’ are entirely a matter of remembering. So you shouldn't pay attention to that quibbler's argument. That claim is just an excuse for being lazy, and music to the ears of slackers; whereas mine gives us reason to be energetic and eager to find out as much [e] as we can. And it's the one I trust and believe is true, and that's why I'm willing to try and find out what being good is – with your help.
MENO: Yes, all right, Socrates… but what do you mean by this idea that we don't learn anything, and that what we call learning is just remembering? I'd like to learn a bit more about that. Is that really how it is?
SOCRATES: Didn't I just say you were crafty, Meno? There you a [82a] go again – asking me if you can ‘learn more’, when I've just said there's no such thing as learning, only remembering! You're trying to trick me into contradicting myself straight away!
MENO: No, Socrates, that wasn't what I was thinking, I swear! I just used that expression out of habit. All I meant was, if you've got some way of showing me that what you say is true, then I'd like to hear it.
SOCRATES: Well, it's certainly not easy. But all right, I'm willing to give it a try, just for you… [He looks over at the large [b] group of slaves that Meno has with him] – Do me a favour and call over one of these attendants of yours, whichever one you like. I'll use him for a demonstration.
MENO: No problem. [He beckons to one of his slaves.] Come over here! [The slave joins them.]
SOCRATES: Is he Greek, at least? Does he speak Greek?
MENO: Absolutely. He's a home-bred.31
SOCRATES: All right. Now watch carefully, and see if he gives the impression of remembering things or learning them from me.
MENO: I will.
SOCRATES: Tell me then, boy32 – do you know what a square is? You know that a square… [He draws a square in the sand with his stick.]… looks like this?
SLAVE: Yes.
SOCRATES: So a square is a figure with four sides – these lines [c]
here – all the same length?
SLAVE: Of course.
SOCRATES: And these lines that go through the middle [fg and
tu] – they're the same length as well, aren't they?
SLAVE: Yes.
SOCRATES: Right. Now a figure like this could be various different sizes, couldn't it?
SLAVE: Of course.
SOCRATES: So suppose this side here [BC] was two feet long, and that side the
re [AB] was two feet long, how many square feet would the whole thing be? [The slave looks unsure.] Here, look at it like this: suppose it was two feet long on this side [BC] but only one foot long on this side [fB], wouldn't that make the area one-times-two square feet?
SLAVE: Yes. [d]
SOCRATES: But since it's two feet long on this side as well [AB], doesn't that make it two-times-two?
SLAVE: Yes.
SOCRATES: So that gives us two-times-two square feet?
SLAVE: Yes.
SOCRATES: So how much is two-times-two? Figure it out, and tell me.
SLAVE: Four, Socrates.
SOCRATES: All right. Now can you imagine there being another square, also with four equal sides, just like this one, but twice the area?
SLAVE: Yes.
SOCRATES: So how many square feet would that one be?
SLAVE: Eight square feet.
SOCRATES: All right, now listen: try and tell me how long each [e] side of that one would have to be. Look – each side of this one here is two feet long. What about each side of a square that's twice the area?
SLAVE: That's obvious, Socrates: twice as long.
SOCRATES: You see, Meno? I'm not teaching him anything. All I'm doing is asking questions. And now he thinks he knows which line will get us an area of eight square feet. Doesn't he?
MENO: Yes, he does.
SOCRATES: So does he know?
MENO: He certainly doesn't.
SOCRATES: But he thinks he knows we'll need a line that's twice as long?
MENO: Yes.
SOCRATES: Just watch him then, as he remembers, step by step – the way remembering should be done. [He turns back to the slave.] Now, you, tell me: you're saying that from a line [83 a] that's twice the length we'll get twice the area? Here's what I mean: it can't be longer on one side and shorter on the other; it's got to be the same length on all four sides, just like this one here [ABCD] but twice the area – eight square feet. Now take your time: you still think it'll be from a line that's twice as long as this one?
SLAVE: Yes.
SOCRATES: All right. And don't we get a line twice as long as this one if we just add on another line of the same length, here [CW]?
SLAVE: Yes, of course.
SOCRATES: So you're saying that from this line here [B W] we'll get our area of eight square feet – i.e. if we have four of these lines, all the same length as this one [BW]?
SLAVE: Yes. [b]
SOCRATES: Let's mark up four equal lines, then, starting off from this one [BW]… [He begins to draw the larger square, BWXY.]… So that would make this square here [BWXY] the one you're saying has an area of eight square feet – yes?
SLAVE: Absolutely.
SOCRATES: All right. Now isn't it made up of four squares – here, here, here and here – each with the same area as this one [ABCD], the one that was four square feet?
SLAVE: Yes.
SOCRATES: So what does that make its area? Doesn't that make it four times as big as this one?
SLAVE: Yes, it'd have to be.
SOCRATES: So, is it twice the area, if it's four times as big?
SLAVE: No, of course not.
SOCRATES: How many times the area is it?
SLAVE: Four times the area.
SOCRATES: Ah. So it turns out we don't get twice the area from [c] a line twice as long. We get four times the area. Right, boy?
SLAVE: Yes, that's right.
SOCRATES: Because four times four is sixteen square feet. Isn't it?
SLAVE: Yes.
SOCRATES: In that case, which line will give us our square of eight square feet? [The slave looks unsure.] From this line here [B W] we got four times the original area, didn't we?
SLAVE: Right.
SOCRATES: And from this line here [BC], which is half as long, we get our original square here [ABCD] of four square feet. Right?
SLAVE: Yes.
SOCRATES: Now isn't a square of eight square feet twice the area of this one here [ABCD], and half the area of that one
[BWXY]?
SLAVE: Yes.
SOCRATES: So that means we'll get it from a line that's bigger than this one [BC] but smaller than that one [BW]. Won't we?
[d] SLAVE: Yes, I think so.
SOCRATES: Perfect! That's just what I want to hear: what you
think.33 Now tell me; didn't we say this line [BC] was two feet long, and that one [Bw] was four feet long?
SLAVE: Yes.
SOCRATES: So that means the line we're trying to find has got to be bigger than this line here – i.e. more than two feet long – and smaller than that one – i.e. less than four feet long?
SLAVE: Yes, it does.
SOCRATES: So, try and tell me how long you think it is. [e]
SLAVE: [Tentatively] Three feet long?
SOCRATES: All right. So let's say it's three feet long… why don't we just take half of this line here and add it on, and that'll make three feet. [He means, add half of cw – i.e. CK – to BC]. Look: two feet here [BC] plus one foot here [CK]. And we'll do the same on this side – two feet here [AB] plus one [AM]. [He now draws the square KLMB]. That gives us the square you mean.
SLAVE: Yes.
SOCRATES: Right. Now, if it's three feet long on this side, and three feet long on this side, doesn't that give the whole thing an area of three-times-three square feet?
SLAVE: It looks like it.
SOCRATES: And how much is three-times-three square feet?
SLAVE: Nine.
SOCRATES: And how many square feet was our twice-as-big square supposed to be?
SLAVE: Eight.
SOCRATES: Ah. So we still haven't got our square of eight square feet; we don't get it from the three-foot line either.
SLAVE: No, we don't.
SOCRATES: Well, what line do we get it from? Try and tell us [84 a] exactly. And if you don't want to use numbers, you can just show us. [He hands the slave his stick.] What line?
SLAVE: [He stares at the drawing.] Honest to god, Socrates, I don't know!
SOCRATES: There, see that, Meno? You realize where he is now on the road towards remembering? At first, he didn't know which line gave us an area of eight square feet… and he still doesn't know now; but the point is, back then he thought he knew, and he answered as if he knew, without the slightest hesitation – he didn't feel baffled. But now he does feel baffled; [b] and as well as not knowing, he also doesn't think he knows.
MENO: Yes, that's right.
SOCRATES: So isn't he better off now – as regards the thing he didn't know?
MENO: Yes, I think he is.
SOCRATES: So by making him feel baffled – by making him numb, the way the numbfish does – we haven't done him any harm, have we?
MENO: No, I don't think we have.
SOCRATES: At any rate, this should have helped him towards discovering the truth. Because now he'll be happy to try and find out what he doesn't know, whereas before, he thought [c] he could easily make perfectly good claims, time and again, in front of loads of people, all about how you need a line of twice the length to get twice the area.34
MENO: Yes, probably!
SOCRATES: So do you think he would ever have tried to find out, or learn, what he wrongly thought he knew, before he tumbled into bafflement – before he sensed he didn't know and felt the need to know?
MENO: No, I don't think he would, Socrates.
SOCRATES: So in fact, being numbed was good for him?
MENO: I think it was.
SOCRATES: Then look at what comes next: out of being baffled, see what he'll also discover by searching with my help – and all I'll be doing is asking questions; I won't be teaching him. Watch very closely. See if you catch me teaching him or [d] explaining things at any stage, and not simply bringing out his own opinions. [He turns back to the slave.] You: tell me … [He draws a new square, the same size as the first one.]
… we've got our square of four square feet, here. Right?
Understand?
/> SLAVE: I understand.
SOCRATES: And we could add another one next to it, here, the same size?
SLAVE: Yes.
SOCRATES: And a third one, here, the same size as each of these two? [The drawing now looks like this:]
SLAVE: Yes.
SOCRATES: All right. And we could fill in the other one here in the corner?
SLAVE: Of course.
SOCRATES: So wouldn't that give us four squares, all with the same area?
[e] SLAVE: Yes.
SOCRATES: So how many times the area of this one [ABCD] does that make the whole thing?
SLAVE: Four times the area.
SOCRATES: And what we needed was a square that was twice the area. Remember?
SLAVE: Absolutely.
SOCRATES: All right. Now can we also have a line like this, cutting each one of these squares in two, from corner to [85 a] corner?* [He draws the line AC, then the three other similar lines, CG, GT and TA.]
SLAVE: Yes.
SOCRATES: Right, so that gives us these four equal lines, with this new square, here, inside them? [He means the lines AC, CG, GT and TA, enclosing the square ACGT.]
SLAVE: Yes, it does.
SOCRATES: Now think what's that square's area [ACGT]?
SLAVE: [Hesitates] I don't follow.
SOCRATES: Look, isn't one half of each of these four smaller squares now on the inside, sliced off by each one of these lines?
SLAVE: Yes.
SOCRATES: So how many of those chunks [i.e. of the triangles]
are in this square here [ACGT]?
SLAVE: Four.
SOCRATES: And how many are there in this one here [ABCD]?
SLAVE: Two.
SOCRATES: And four is how many times bigger than two?
SLAVE: Twice as big.
SOCRATES: So what's this square's area [ACGT]?
SLAVE: [Thinks for a moment]: Eight square feet! [b]
SOCRATES: And what line do we get it from?
SLAVE: That one there [AC]!
SOCRATES: The one that stretches from corner to corner in the square of four square feet?
SLAVE: Yes.
SOCRATES: They call that line a ‘diagonal’ – sophists, I mean.
So if we're calling that line a ‘diagonal’, then it's from the diagonal of a square, according to you, Meno's boy, that we get a square that's twice the area?