Listening In: The Secret White House Recordings of John F. Kennedy
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PRESIDENT KENNEDY MEETS WITH MRS. MEDGAR EVERS, HER CHILDREN, REENA AND DARRELL EVERS, AND CHARLES EVERS, MEDGAR EVERS’S BROTHER, ON JUNE 21, 1963, TWO WEEKS AFTER MEDGAR EVERS’S ASSASSINATION BY A WHITE SUPREMACIST, OVAL OFFICE, JUNE 21, 1963
CALL TO GOVERNOR ROSS BARNETT, SEPTEMBER 22, 1962
President Kennedy’s first call to Governor Ross Barnett of Mississippi during the crisis over the integration of the University of Mississippi revealed the battle lines. Near the end of the call, Governor Barnett, reverting to the ordinary chitchat of politicians, thanked the President for his interest in poultry. Even in that highly charged environment, the incongruity of that remark seemed to cause Kennedy to pause and suppress a laugh.
JFK: Hello? Hello, Governor?
BARNETT: All right. Yes.
JFK: How are you?
BARNETT: Is this …?
JFK: This is the President.
BARNETT: Oh, well, Mr. President …
JFK: Well, I’m glad to talk to you, Governor. I am concerned about this situation, down there, as I know …
BARNETT: Oh, I should say I am concerned about it, Mr. President. It’s a horrible situation.
JFK: Well now, here’s my problem, Governor.
BARNETT: Yes.
JFK: Listen, I didn’t put him in the university, but on the other hand, under the Constitution, I have to carry out the orders of the … carry that order out, and I don’t want to do it in any way that causes difficulty to you or to anyone else. But I’ve got to do it. Now, I’d like to get your help in doing that.
BARNETT: Yes. Well, have you talked with the attorney general this morning?
JFK: Yeah. I talked to him, and in fact, I just met with him for about an hour, and we went over the situation.
BARNETT: Did he and Mr. Watkins1 have a talk this morning, Tom Watkins, the lawyer from Jackson, or not?
JFK: Yes, he talked to Tom Watkins, he told me.
JAMES MEREDITH, ESCORTED BY JOHN DOAR, ASSISTANT ATTORNEY GENERAL FOR CIVIL RIGHTS IN THE U.S. DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE, OXFORD, MISSISSIPPI, OCTOBER 1, 1962
BARNETT: Yes, sir. Well, I don’t know what … I haven’t had a chance to talk to him.
JFK: Now, just wait, just one minute, because I’ve got the attorney general in the outer office, and I’ll just speak to him.
BARNETT: All right.
JFK: Hello, Governor?
BARNETT: Yes. Hold on.
JFK: I just talked to the attorney general. Now, he said that he talked to Mr. Watkins.
BARNETT: Yes.
JFK: And the problem is as to whether we can get some help in getting this fellow in this week.
BARNETT: Yes.
JFK: Now, evidently we couldn’t; the attorney general didn’t feel that he and Mr. Watkins had reached any final agreement on that.
BARNETT: Well, Mr. President, Mr. Watkins is going to fly up there early tomorrow morning.
JFK: Right.
BARNETT: And could you gentlemen talk with him tomorrow? You …
JFK: Yes, I will have the attorney general talk to him and then …
BARNETT: Yes.
JFK: … after they’ve finished talking I’ll talk to the attorney general …
BARNETT: All right.
JFK: … on the phone and then if he feels it’s useful for me to meet with him …
BARNETT: I thought …
JFK: … I’ll do that.
BARNETT: I thought they were making some progress. I didn’t know.
JFK: Well, now …
BARNETT: I couldn’t say, you know.
JFK: … he and Mr. Watkins, they can meet tomorrow. Now, the difficulty is, we got two or three problems. In the first place, what can we do to, first place, is the court’s order to you, which I guess is, you’re given until Tuesday. What is your feeling on that?
BARNETT: Well, I want …
JFK: What’s your position on that?
BARNETT: … to think it over, Mr. President.
JFK: Right.
BARNETT: It’s a serious matter, now, that I want to think it over a few days. Until Tuesday, anyway.
JFK: All right. Well now, let me, let me say this.
BARNETT: You know what I am up against, Mr. President. I took an oath, you know, to abide by the laws of this state.
JFK: That’s right.
BARNETT: And our Constitution here and the Constitution of the United States. I’m on the spot here, you know.
JFK: Well now, you’ve got …
BARNETT: I’ve taken an oath to do just that, and you know what our laws are with reference to …
JFK: Yes, I understand that. Well now, we’ve got the …
BARNETT: … and we have a statute that was enacted a couple of weeks ago stating positively that no one who had been convicted of a crime, or whether the criminal action pending against them, would not be eligible for any of the institutions of higher learning. And that’s our law, and it seemed like the Court of Appeal didn’t pay any attention to that.
JFK: Well, of course the problem is, Governor, that I’ve got my responsibility, just like you have yours.
BARNETT: Well, that’s true.
JFK: And my responsibility, of course, is to the …
BARNETT: I realize that, and I appreciate that so much.
JFK: Well now, here’s the thing, Governor. I will, the attorney general can talk to Mr. Watkins tomorrow. What I want, would like to do is to try to work this out in an amicable way. We don’t want a lot of people down there getting hurt.
BARNETT: Oh, that’s right.
JFK: And we don’t want to have a, you know, it’s very easy to …
BARNETT: Mr. President, let me say this. They’re calling me and others from all over the state, wanting to bring a thousand, wanting to bring five hundred, and two hundred, and all such as that, you know. We don’t want such as that.
JFK: I know. Well, we don’t want to have a lot of people getting hurt or killed down there.
BARNETT: Why, that’s correct. Mr. President, let me say this. Mr. Watkins is really an A-1 lawyer, an honorable man, has the respect and the confidence of every lawyer in America who knows him. He’s of the law firm of Watkins and Eager. They’ve had an A rating for many, many years, and I believe this, that he can help solve this problem.
JFK: Well, I will, the attorney general will see Mr. Watkins tomorrow, and then I, after the attorney general and Mr. Watkins are finished then, I will be back in touch with you.
BARNETT: All right. All right. I’ll appreciate it so much, now, and there, Watkins will leave here in the morning, and I’ll have him to get into touch with the attorney general as to when he can see him tomorrow.
JFK: Yeah, he’ll see him and …
BARNETT: Yes, sir.
JFK: … we will, then you and I’ll be back and talk again.
BARNETT: All right.
JFK: Thank you.
BARNETT: All right.
JFK: OK.
BARNETT: I appreciate your interest in our poultry program and all those things.
JFK: Well, we’re [suppressed laughter] …
BARNETT: Thank you so much.
JFK: OK, Governor. Thank you.
BARNETT: Yes, sir. All right now.
JFK: Bye now.
BARNETT: Thank you. Bye.
CALL TO GOVERNOR ROSS BARNETT, SEPTEMBER 30, 1962
In this follow-up conversation, the stakes have risen, with a death reported during the call, and a breakdown in order seemed imminent. When Kennedy announces, “We’ll decide what we’re gonna do,” and demands that Governor Barnett refrain from giving speeches, it’s clear that the tide has shifted.
BARNETT: … the commissioner of the highway patrol to order every man he’s got.
JFK: Yeah. Well, now, how long’s that gonna take? We don’t want, uh, somebody …
BARNETT: Well, I haven’t been able to locate him.
JFK: You can’t locate?
BARNETT: The … he went to the �
� Here’s what happened. He went to the doctor’s office with this man that was hurt.
JFK: Yeah.
BARNETT: And he, I finally located him there after you’d told me to get, [have?] him to get more people, don’t you see, if …
JFK: Yeah.
BARNETT: … you needed ’em.
JFK: Yeah.
BARNETT: And he thought then that fifty he had would be sufficient.
JFK: Yeah.
BARNETT: But I told him, by all means, to order out every one he had if he needed it.
JFK: Yeah.
BARNETT: And I’m certainly trying in every way …
JFK: Well, we can’t consider moving Meredith2 as long as, you know, there’s a riot outside, ’cause he wouldn’t be safe.
BARNETT: Sir?
JFK: We couldn’t consider moving Meredith, if we haven’t been able to restore order outside. That’s the problem, Governor.
BARNETT: Well, I’ll tell you what I’ll do, Mr. President.
JFK: Yeah.
BARNETT: I’ll go up there myself …
JFK: Well, now, how long will it take you to get there?
BARNETT: … and I’ll get a microphone and tell ’em that you have agreed to, for him to be removed.
JFK: No. No. Now, wait a minute. How long?
BARNETT: [unclear]
JFK: Wait a minute, Governor.
BARNETT: Yes?
JFK: Now, how long is it going to take you to get up there?
BARNETT: ’Bout an hour.
JFK: Now, I’ll tell you what, if you want to go up there and then you call me from up there. Then we’ll decide what we’re gonna do before you make any speeches about it.
BARNETT: Well, all right. Well …
JFK: No sense in …
BARNETT: … I mean, whatever you, if you’d authorize …
JFK: You see, if we don’t, we’ve got an hour to go, and that’s not, we may not have an hour.
BARNETT: This, this man …
JFK: Won’t it take you an hour to get up there?
BARNETT: … this man has just died.
JFK: Did he die?
BARNETT: Yes.
JFK: Which one? State police?
BARNETT: A state policeman.
JFK: Yeah, well, you see, we gotta get order up there, and that’s what we thought we’re going to have.
BARNETT: Mr. President, please. Why don’t you, can’t you give an order up there to remove Meredith?
JFK: How can I remove him, Governor, when there’s a riot in the street, and he may step out of that building and something happen to him? I can’t remove him under those conditions. You …
PRESIDENT KENNEDY ADDRESSES THE NATION ON THE INTEGRATION OF THE UNIVERSITY OF MISSISSIPPI, SEPTEMBER 30, 1962
BARNETT: But, but …
JFK: Let’s get order up there, then we can do something about Meredith.
BARNETT: … we can surround it with plenty of officials.
JFK: Well, we’ve gotta get somebody up there now to get order and stop the firing and the shooting. Then when, you and I will talk on the phone about Meredith.
BARNETT: All right.
JFK: But first we gotta get order.
BARNETT: I’ll call and tell ’em to get every official they can.
JFK: That’s right and then you and I …
BARNETT: [unclear]
JFK: … will talk when they’ve got the, when they get order there, then you and I’ll talk about what’s the best thing to do with Meredith.
BARNETT: All right, then.
JFK: Well, thank you.
BARNETT: All right.
MEETING WITH AMERICANS FOR DEMOCRATIC ACTION LEADERS, MAY 4, 1963
In the spring of 1963, the Civil Rights Movement had shifted its attention to the recalcitrant city of Birmingham, Alabama. An ugly campaign resulted, with growing anger between the advocates for change and the well-organized authorities commanded by Commissioner of Public Safety Theophilus “Bull” Connor. In this meeting, President Kennedy tries to explain his position before a prominent liberal organization, the Americans for Democratic Action, on the day that a now-famous photograph appeared in the New York Times, showing police dogs attacking peaceful protesters.
THE PHOTOGRAPH THAT SHOCKED THE NATION: POLICE DOGS ATTACK A PROTESTER IN BIRMINGHAM, ALABAMA, THE NEW YORK TIMES, MAY 4, 1963
JFK: There is no federal law that we can pass to do anything about that picture in today’s Times. Well, there isn’t. I mean what law can you pass to do anything about police power in the community of Birmingham? There is nothing we can do. There is no federal law, is no federal statute, no federal law we can pass. Now, the fact of the matter is that Birmingham is in worse shape than any other city in the United States, and it’s been that way for a year and a half. We’ve been working, we’ve got a new mayor who was elected probably as a result of the efforts of this administration, working with the press, get those papers down there, working with the steel companies to try and get them to change their attitudes, the new mayor who was elected, is coming in on May 18, was elected by the Negroes, got a minority of the white vote. But it’s being challenged in the Supreme Court; he doesn’t take office until the Supreme Court decision is reached on May 18. And as it is today, Bull Connor’s in charge, and this is just what Bull Connor wants.3 I personally think that if I was in charge down there that I would wait until the new mayor is in. That is the only hope. What we have now is another bad day down there, the prisons are full. I mean, Bull Connor just eats this up. What they want, what the governor wants is to put the National Guard in there.
That’s what is going to happen in a day or two. I would have, if I had been in charge of the operation, I think this was [a substantial] view, I would have waited until the new mayor came in. That is the best hope for Birmingham. That’s what, all this happened for years [unclear]. I think it’s terrible, the picture in the paper. The fact of the matter, that’s just what Connor wants. And, as I say, Birmingham is the worst city in the South. They have done nothing for the Negroes in that community, so it is an intolerable situation, that there is no argument about. I am not saying that anybody ought to be patient. This may be the only way these things come to a head. I do think there is a chance which this new mayor represents in about a week. Now, what I think is going to happen, it’s going to get much worse, we’re going to have the National Guard in there and all sorts of trouble …
[break]
JFK: [pushed for more “moral suasion” on Civil Rights] Well, wait a, let me just say on the Civil Rights business. We have done not enough because the situation is so desperate. But we have shoved and pushed and the Department of Justice has, there is nothing that my brother’s given more time to. And I quite agree, if I were a Negro I would be awfully sore, but there’s not much. I had some newspaperman in here telling me, “Isn’t it outrageous in Birmingham?” and I said, “Why are you over there eating at the Metropolitan Club4 every day? You talk about Birmingham and you’re up there at the Metropolitan Club. Some of our distinguished commentators … every day lunch [unclear], they wouldn’t even let Negro ambassadors in.” So now he said, “Well, we want to work from the inside,” and I said, “Well, your one contribution is that now they won’t let white ambassadors in.” [laughter] Most of your columnists that you read every day, they’re all over there at the Metropolitan Club. So I think that we have worked hard on civil rights. I think it is a national crisis.
MEETING ABOUT BIRMINGHAM, MAY 12, 1963
After a night of grim violence in Birmingham, JFK’s closest advisors gathered to keep events from spiraling further out of control. With the specter of a full-blown riot coming, they negotiate throughout the day with Martin Luther King, Jr., who is essential to maintaining calm, notwithstanding the fact that he was the target of a bomb the night before. Despite some mutual suspicion, King’s team and JFK’s work together to defuse the situation, and their official statements, written in collaboration, preserve a modicum of calm.
RFK: Now, have you got what happened last night? You want to hear a few things?
JFK: OK.
RFK: I guess shortly before twelve, maybe eleven-thirty, they had this explosion that took place, I guess first at Martin Luther King’s brother’s house, Reverend King, and virtually demolished his house, so that he was very fortunate to escape. About thirty minutes later, an explosion took place four miles away at a motel where Martin Luther King stays, and badly damaged it. Immediately, at both places, crowds gathered. And then the crowds got angry, but the police said the sheriff’s office were able to have the situation reasonably under control. There was some brick throwing, and the crowd was unfriendly, but by two or so in the morning, they had the situation reasonably under control.
At that time, the governor moved two or three hundred of these special deputies. And the newsmen, Claude Sitton and others, heard the police tell them to put their guns back in the cars, that they didn’t need them, but they got out anyway and they started shoving people around, sticking their guns into people, and hitting them with billies, and then the crowd became more [unclear] riots and brickthrowing. All of this lasted for the next three or four hours, and almost got out of hand. A number of the policemen were badly hurt, and I guess a number of the Negroes were badly hurt. And it was very close to becoming complete chaos.